High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Cloud Cover]

Have you stopped to think how much it would add to the economy, the economic impact of getting from Toronto to Montreal in an hour?

I want to see the business case for this project with all of its fairy tale assumptions.

 

[ytz]

Have you stopped to think how much it would add to the economy, the economic impact of getting from Toronto to Montreal in an hour?

Not just Montreal to Toronto. If you've ever been to a country with HSR here's what you'll see:

1) It really competes with air. Right now. If you're going from downtown Toronto to downtown Montreal, door to door including pre-boarding, access times to the airport, etc, it's easily 3-4 hrs. HSR would be 3 hrs, cheaper than air and more comfortable and productive.

2) Supercommuters. It's very normal to see folks commute 150 km with HSR. Especially white collar. Being a lawyer or accountant or doctor in Toronto and being able to live in Peterborough would be huge. Being able to live in Ottawa and access the Montreal job market would be nice. Etc.

People who have never experienced HSR will look at this at something like VIA but faster. But if you've ever traveled, you'll see HSR stations function more like a mini airport terminal with giant parking structures, car rental counters, transit connections, shopping arcades, business centres, etc.

Finally, it should be noted that Canada is the only G7 country without HSR. And population density in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor is actually close to European HSR corridors.

 

[ytz]

Also the actual contract is a $3.9B design contract for 4-5 years. The design consortium has to come up with a financing plan too. The government that is in power in 2029 gets to actually decide what gets built.

 

[OldSolduer]

If we can be serious here for a minute, has anyone actually costed this thing out? Estimates IMO tend to be on the low side and end up costing much more than the quote.

What's the planned route? What is the terrain like? (forgive me as I am a Western Canadian so I have no idea) Has anyone bothered to ask Japan how they did theirs?

Or is this some scam JT is running with?

 

[RangerRay]

Not just Montreal to Toronto. If you've ever been to a country with HSR here's what you'll see:

1) It really competes with air. Right now. If you're going from downtown Toronto to downtown Montreal, door to door including pre-boarding, access times to the airport, etc, it's easily 3-4 hrs. HSR would be 3 hrs, cheaper than air and more comfortable and productive.

2) Supercommuters. It's very normal to see folks commute 150 km with HSR. Especially white collar. Being a lawyer or accountant or doctor in Toronto and being able to live in Peterborough would be huge. Being able to live in Ottawa and access the Montreal job market would be nice. Etc.

People who have never experienced HSR will look at this at something like VIA but faster. But if you've ever traveled, you'll see HSR stations function more like a mini airport terminal with giant parking structures, car rental counters, transit connections, shopping arcades, business centres, etc.

Finally, it should be noted that Canada is the only G7 country without HSR. And population density in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor is actually close to European HSR corridors.

My understanding was that it was never followed up with because getting the property to build a dedicated passenger line would be next to impossible in that area. Or so I’ve heard…

 

[Cloud Cover]

If we can be serious here for a minute, has anyone actually costed this thing out? Estimates IMO tend to be on the low side and end up costing much more than the quote.

What's the planned route? What is the terrain like? (forgive me as I am a Western Canadian so I have no idea) Has anyone bothered to ask Japan how they did theirs?

Or is this some scam JT is running with?

The prime consulting engineering firm is a conglomeration that is essentially SNC Lavalin.

As for cost, assuming we can screw things up as badly as California, we are looking at North of 400B$ for a train system.

 

[OldSolduer]

The prime consulting engineering firm is a conglomeration that is essentially SNC Lavalin.

Oh that makes me feel soooooo confident!!!

 

[ytz]

If we can be serious here for a minute, has anyone actually costed this thing out? Estimates IMO tend to be on the low side and end up costing much more than the quote.

What's the planned route? What is the terrain like? (forgive me as I am a Western Canadian so I have no idea) Has anyone bothered to ask Japan how they did theirs?

This is the point of a design contract. It's designed to answer questions like the ones you asked in detail. And give the government COAs on what to build at different price/ROI points.

And the Japanese were actually part of a bidding consortium that lost. This actually a ton of international interest. And there were bidders from Japan, France and Germany. The countries most known for HSR, aside from China.

 

[OldSolduer]

This is the point of a design contract. It's designed to answer questions like the ones you asked in detail. And give the government COAs on what to build at different price/ROI points.

And the Japanese were actually part of a bidding consortium that lost. This actually a ton of international interest. And there were bidders from Japan, France and Germany. The countries most known for HSR, aside from China.

Thank you. With SNC Lavalin - or whatever they are called now - you'll have to forgive me for my doubt that this will happen for the price. It will be far higher.

 

[ytz]

The prime consulting engineering firm is a conglomeration that is essentially SNC Lavalin.

As for cost, assuming we can screw things up as badly as California, we are looking at North of 400B$ for a train system.

Oh that makes me feel soooooo confident!!!

Hate em all you want. But they do a ton of military stuff too. And that's cause we don't have a ton of large infrastructure developers in the country. And in this particular case they came as a package deal with CDPQ (Quebec pension fund) who is doing the financing and SNCF (French National rail company) who will do a lot of the planning. Here's the part that will really you surprise most. Air Canada is part of the consortium.

https://www.cadence.info/en

 

[PrairieFella]

If we can be serious here for a minute, has anyone actually costed this thing out? Estimates IMO tend to be on the low side and end up costing much more than the quote.

What's the planned route? What is the terrain like? (forgive me as I am a Western Canadian so I have no idea) Has anyone bothered to ask Japan how they did theirs?

Or is this some scam JT is running with?

This isn't a scam and it should have happened decades ago in this corridor. Best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago, second best time is now. This project is projected to boost the national economy by a full percentage of GDP a year but it will not be cheap. We're talking tens of billions of dollars. It will be a long time too, at least 10-15 years for the full corridor, even expert builders in France and Japan take that long. It's important to note that the winning team includes SNCF out of France which is amazing news. They are probably the world's best operator of HSR, right up there with the best of the Japanese Shinkansen operators and Trenitalia. In terms of route, I'm uncertain but I believe a prospective map is available online somewhere.

For any of you who have never taken HSR, take it next time you're overseas. It kicks the absolute shit out of flights for most short-to-intermediate distances. Depending on the location, it's also better for long distance. HSR would be a game changer in this corridor since it's one of the densest corridors on the continent.

 

[ytz]

My understanding was that it was never followed up with because getting the property to build a dedicated passenger line would be next to impossible in that area. Or so I’ve heard…

Part of the design process is actually doing land assembly and even recommending legislative change if necessary to get this built. I suspect they'll be assembling land where they can.

 

[ytz]

This isn't a scam and it should have happened decades ago in this corridor.

It's Canada. Anything that isn't a pipeline or a highway is automatically a scam to people.

 

[PrairieFella]

It's Canada. Anything that isn't a pipeline or a highway is automatically a scam to people.

Just one more lane, brah.

 

[ytz]

Thank you. With SNC Lavalin - or whatever they are called now - you'll have to forgive me for my doubt that this will happen for the price. It will be far higher.

Good news. The government in 2029 has an off ramp. They can accept the design and proposal. Or they can even bid that design to somebody else entirely.

 

[ytz]

Just one more lane, brah.

Ironically, even the Americans build HSR. Not well. But still.

 

[PrairieFella]

Ironically, even the Americans build HSR.

Extremely poorly.

 

[ytz]

It's 4-5 years design. Then 8-10 years of construction. At the supposed build of $60-90B that's about $9B/yr for construction. Less than 2% of federal revenue per year. Time to cut some federal pogey and redirect it to projects that actually will have a serious economic impact and legitimately improve the quality of life of a ton of people. Even if you never ride this thing, the economy benefits from half the population not having to rely on crowded airports (Pearson now has some of the worst on time performance on the continent) or clogged highways (401 congestion costs the economy billions every year). Just imagine what the crowding and congestion and economic impacts would be in 2040 (when this is supposed to finish).

If you're having trouble understanding the impact of congestion, let me put it in terms you'll get: it's like a pipeline for people.

 

[Quirky]

If you're having trouble understanding the impact of congestion, let me put it in terms you'll get: it's like a pipeline for people.

That sounds familiar!

1,000 km/h Edmonton-Calgary pod commute is the latest twist of an exploration that's been happening for ages

The high-speed pod would be whisked along by 'electrically-driven magnetic propulsion' inside a tube suspended on pillars, reducing the commute to a comfortable ha…

nationalpost.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Not just Montreal to Toronto. If you've ever been to a country with HSR here's what you'll see:

1) It really competes with air. Right now. If you're going from downtown Toronto to downtown Montreal, door to door including pre-boarding, access times to the airport, etc, it's easily 3-4 hrs. HSR would be 3 hrs, cheaper than air and more comfortable and productive.

2) Supercommuters. It's very normal to see folks commute 150 km with HSR. Especially white collar. Being a lawyer or accountant or doctor in Toronto and being able to live in Peterborough would be huge. Being able to live in Ottawa and access the Montreal job market would be nice. Etc.

People who have never experienced HSR will look at this at something like VIA but faster. But if you've ever traveled, you'll see HSR stations function more like a mini airport terminal with giant parking structures, car rental counters, transit connections, shopping arcades, business centres, etc.

Finally, it should be noted that Canada is the only G7 country without HSR. And population density in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor is actually close to European HSR corridors.

Aye, and being able to get minerals and foods, oil and gas, to tidewater would mean we could actually earn some cash to pay for it.