Government hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Underway]

I never thought I would say this but I miss the homestead family feeling of Regan.

 

[ytz]

So does that make Vance the American Putin?

Maybe. You'll know when he starts lighting candles at a military church and getting priests to bless ICBMs. He's trying though.

Which admittedly I have as the Manchurian Candidate on my Bingo card. 2025 is a pretty strange year.
Ronald Reagan is rolling in his grave.

It's cute that you think this is as bad as it gets for America. Look at the generation of politicians coming next..... 2028 will be your choice of first female President. Ivanka or AOC. And it only gets worse from there.

We're in a world where the Chinese Communist government is doing demos of flying cars and American administration officials are retweeting a guy named "catturd". Imagine, telling a Vietnam veteran that in a few decades the Vietnamese Communist General Secretary would be openly pleading with an American President to support free markets and trade, and that America was trying the Soviet experiment with autarky.

 

[ytz]

Oh geez, I laughed so hard at this is forgot which way way gravity worked for a minute!

If you know Yelstin, you won't unsee it now.

 

[ytz]

It does when you consider that as history, and used to drive a wedge. It’s almost like a KGB playbook from the 80’s, oh wait…

I don't think the KGB ever dreamt of having an American administration willingly dismantle the American imposed global order.

Do I think we should spend more? Absolutely.

Do I think the American people will care about us if we spend more? Absolutely not.

Do I think the American elites will care about us, if we spend more on defence? Increasingly not.

I think the Americans who are really vehement about other countries spending more on defence care less about the capability than they do about the contracts (they imagine they'll get) and appearances. Namely that they want the rest of NATO to have crap social services and spend it all on defence just the like the US, so that Americans won't question their own wasteful spending. Same logic as Russian elites worrying about Ukraine developing as a capitalist democracy, showing up the Russian mafia state. The recent Vance comments during Signalgate kinda shows this attitude.

 

[MrWhyt]

Only an extreme level of TDS associates Trump with Hitler.

lets see:
-wants to annex other countries
-is obsessed with "undesirables" polluting the blood of the nation
-thinks his country has been wronged by others and is out to make things right

of course there are differences, Hitler actually fought for his country and never had a daughter that he wanted to fuck.

 

[ytz]

Hitler actually fought for his country and never had a daughter that he wanted to fuck.

Hitler did have a thing for his half-niece.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hitler did have a thing for his half-niece.

So, a Southerner!

 

[FJAG]

Let's all give a warm thank you to #47 for that.

Though many won't admit it, if it wasn't for 47 we wouldn't even be talking about defence.

In a way you are right. 3 months ago the need to talk about defence lay entirely at the feet of Putin. But since the new White House regime took over, started throwing hissy fits, started kissing Putin's ass while openly threatening the US's former allies and turning the world economy into a tail spin, then yeah. I see where we get to thank 47 for this dumpster fire.

The Danes are laggards in Defense spending as well. So no shock that he’s talking about two countries that are weak in Defense and have approaches that can leave the US vulnerable.

I miss seeing those approaches creating an American vulnerability. The Davis Sea and Baffin Bay look like natural choke points during times of conflict. The straits around Iceland are a bit more open. More importantly, in the event of hostilities the vessels that could threaten the US would long before then have positioned themselves into launch positions under peacetime passage. Trumpian view of defence is like Putin's - an ever expanding outer cordon of vassal states.

Do I think that President Trump’s approach is correct, no, but he pushed in his first term and was ignored. So he’s going scorched earth this time to force the issue.

It depends on what you call ignore. The 2014 NATO Wales Summit target for 2%/20%, agreed to by the US after Ukraine 1 was set for 2024. By the time 45 left office in Jan 2021, Putin's brigades were still siting in their encampments drinking vodka and selling off fuel and weapons.

I think most Americans are past caring what Canada thinks.

They never did.

Your government has shirked its responsibilities for years.

Pursuant to Wales we're only in default for a year. For a country that is now resolved to pull in its horns and look only after itself, there's a bit of pot calling kettle black. From a defence of our own country point of view we've done the right amount based on the fact that the gamble that there were no active territorial threats has paid off. From the point of view of helping our allies during active hostilities, Canada too has pulled its weight in Afghanistan and helping train others in insurgent situations. It's only in the field of pulling our weight in an alliance dedicated to deterring war in Europe that there has been a major slackening off. We have built neither a credible expeditionary force nor a viable defence industry to support it. Canada's only excuse is that everyone, including the US, has dramatically reduce both forces and defence industry dedicated to European deterrence.

It's cute that you think this is as bad as it gets for America. Look at the generation of politicians coming next..... 2028 will be your choice of first female President. Ivanka or AOC. And it only gets worse from there.

The Democrats still have an opportunity to get their act together and to make a change to the centre and put paid to their vocal fringe group and thus become acceptable to the majority of Americans. The Republicans unfortunately are in the most advanced stages of Stockholm syndrome. There will be no change of direction for the better for them (and its hard to imagine a direction any worse than where they already are - I've been proven wrong on this before). The question is whether their electoral base will collapse as the enormity of the clown show becomes apparent even to them (and I don't hold much hope for this happening en masse - just enough to make a difference).

 

[ytz]

So does that make Vance the American Putin?

Honestly? Kudos to Vance for figuring out how gullible Americans are. He could well be your Putin given how successful he's been at reading the room and manipulating his way to the top.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1908225541137981618

 

[McG]

We seem to have fallen away from discussing Canadian defence spending. Let's get back to that.

For those concerned that defence spending targets cannot be reached because industry cannot deliver enough equipment, keep in mind that defence equipment spending is only targeted to be a minimum of 0.4% of GDP (ie. 20% or a minimum 2%). There are a lot of other places we should be spending in addition to equipment like on antiquated infrastructure, PYs to resource schools without CFTPO, and exercise consumables (food, diesel, ammo).

... of course, it is also worth noting that relative to GDP the CAF is not receiving half the equipment that it should be. Maybe there is a way to double the LVM contract without running another competition?

 

[Kirkhill]

Banging the drum again ....

But we can't address the difference in the Canadian Defence Budget versus the cost of defence in European countries, like Finland, that employ conscripts.

I will stipulate that conscription is a tax on individuals and it is a drain on the economy.

But the net effect is that more of the available cash goes to buying hardware and to training soldiers. Less money goes to salaries, accommodations and pensions.

Finnish conscription system - Puolustusvoimat - YJA

puolustusvoimat.fi

Conscription is a cost-effective way of generating a large and capable reserve.

According to the Constitution of Finland every Finnish citizen is obligated to participate in national defence. Every male Finnish citizen aged 18-60 is liable for military service, and women can apply for military service on a voluntary basis. A person liable for military service must complete either armed or unarmed military service or non-military (civil) service. During military service, conscripts receive high-quality military training. After completing military service, they are mustered out into the Finnish Defence Forces’ reserve.

All men who turn 18 take part in a call-up that same year. At the call up, conscripts’ fitness for service is checked. They are asked about their wishes involving their service, and based on these, they are given the starting date and location of their service. Call ups are not where conscripts’ overall service times are determined. If a conscript is not deemed fit for service, he is exempted from peacetime military service. A conscript may ask for deferral of his entry into service for a justified reason.

Women can apply for voluntary military service by sending an application to one of the Defence Forces Regional Offices. The application including attachments must be sent to one’s regional office by 1 March. There will be a separate information and selection event in April for women applying for military service

Depending on the training, military service lasts 165, 255 or 347 days. Conscripts trained for rank-and-file duties serve for 165 days, those trained for rank-and-file duties requiring special skills and those completing unarmed service serve for 255 days. Conscripts trained to be officers, non-commissioned officers or for the most demanding special duties in the rank-and-file serve for 347 days. Non-military service lasts 347 days.

The chart below depicts the first year of service. 165 days of basic training. 255 days for specialists. 347 days for officers and Non-Military Service.

After military service, you are mustered out into the reserve. The rank and file remain in the reserve until they turn 50, and they will receive a maximum of 80 or 150 days of refresher training during their reservist time. Officers and non-commissioned officers remain in the reserve until they turn 60, during which time they will receive a maximum of 200 days of refresher training. Each male aged 18-60 belongs to the auxiliary reserve.

.....

During peacetime, the Finnish Defence Forces employs approximately 12,000 persons in domestic duties. Approximately 4,000 of those are civilians or have received a civilian tertiary education. The Finnish Defence Forces trains approximately 22,000 conscripts annually.

About us - Finnish Defence Forces - Puolustusvoimat - YJA

Commander, generals and Defence Command Finland as well as the centres.

puolustusvoimat.fi

....

5.6 million Finns
40.1 million Canadians

8,000 Finnish "Regulars"
58,000 Canadian "Regulars" (Actual Canadian Regulars = 52,835 TES as of Jan 1 2024)

4,000 Finnish "Civilians"
29,000 Canadian "Civilians" (Actual Canadian Civilians = 27,000 employed as of March 2020)

To this point the Finns are matching our effort fairly evenly.

Here is the big difference.


22,000 Finnish "Trainees"
157,000 Canadian "Trainees" per annum

6 months to a year of service followed by 30 to 40 years on the books in the reserve with 3 to 6 months of refresher training over those decades.


The kit

Materiel and Equipment of the Finnish Defence Forces - Puolustusvoimat - YJA

You can browse our equipment branch-by-branch or by different classes of weapons and weapon systems.

puolustusvoimat.fi

....

There is a full time air and maritime force as well as a small army that deploys a small battalion overseas (486) annually.

....

That is all sustained with a budget of 6.2 BEURO or 2.3% of GDP

They buy from Germany, Israel, Norway, Sweden and the US

But the also have a well developed domestic arms industry

Patria, NAMMO, Robonic, SAKU and Sisu Auto.

Together they generate 133 MEURO in export sales to offset those foreign purchases.

....

What would it take to maintain our existing professional force AND add 157,000 TES to the Reserve pool every year?

 

[Cloud Cover]

I read on X that HIMARS has been selected, but haven’t seen anything from the federales on their info machine.

 

[dangerboy]

Probably will not hear any announcements till after the election. Traditionally, DND does not make any announcements during an election cycle.

 

[Underway]

I read on X that HIMARS has been selected, but haven’t seen anything from the federales on their info machine.

It's the only thing that remotely matches the requirements. If selling the F35 to the public is getting harder, the HIMARS system will be harder.

 

[MilEME09]

New idea, upon release unless for medical reasons, all members are retained on the supplementary reserve for a period of 5 years. Costs us almost nothing but gives us a manpower pool to draw on in case of war.