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General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

Jarnhamar

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The GG, the CDS. Does that take the taxpayers focus on Trudeau's failure to deliver vaccines? Doubt it wasn't deliberately planned to drop when needed by the Liberals. Nothing is not known in Ottawa included the marital status of the PM.
I'm assuming it was sat on until Vance was replaced as CDS.
Makes sense why Vance wasn't given the NATO job if they knew this was coming.
Greasy.
 

Good2Golf

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...Nothing is not known in Ottawa included the marital status of the PM.
...other than allegedly a pair of someone’s 🥜 in someone else’s 👜 due to previous infidelity...allegedly...
 

OldSolduer

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We are all human. We make rules and laws and regulations so we behave in a somewhat appropriate fashion.

IMO the laws of nature and what's in our DNA will outweigh the laws we make as people. This is one of those cases.
 

MJP

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We are all human. We make rules and laws and regulations so we behave in a somewhat appropriate fashion.

IMO the laws of nature and what's in our DNA will outweigh the laws we make as people. This is one of those cases.
Yea no. I respect your opinion and understand what you are saying but lots of people live honourable lifes completing resisting "nature's" urges and act like normal human beings.

I chalk this up to nurture as he clearly felt that it was appropriate to respond in the manner he allegedly did. So it is clear, by nurture, I am calling out the CAF writ large that has allowed this behaviour to percolate to the point that a MGen thought that was an appropriate email to send ( allegedly). Even as a joke that email has no place in the CAF.

There is a reason we have Op HONOUR and hateful conduct as an ongoing priority, as we have trouble removing it from our culture through years of silent acceptance. Culture is hard to change and takes years. Having these efforts undercut by the very soldier that should be leading the charge is not going to help.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Yea no. I respect your opinion and understand what you are saying but lots of people live honourable lifes completing resisting "nature's" urges and act like normal human beings.

I chalk this up to nurture as he clearly felt that it was appropriate to respond in the manner he allegedly did. So it is clear, by nurture, I am calling out the CAF writ large that has allowed this behaviour to percolate to the point that a MGen thought that was an appropriate email to send ( allegedly). Even as a joke that email has no place in the CAF.

There is a reason we have Op HONOUR and hateful conduct as an ongoing priority, as we have trouble removing it from our culture through years of silent acceptance. Culture is hard to change and takes years. Having these efforts undercut by the very soldier that should be leading the charge is not going to help.
There is also a pattern establishment which is the real problem. Everyone makes bad judgement calls, they learn from them and carry on. It's when they don't that it becomes an issue.

It's sad because General Vance was a warfighter and by all accounts, an outstanding student of war. This will unfortunately be what he is remembered for though.
 

SupersonicMax

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I have a couple of points/observations. I am not excusing the alleged behaviour however, there are things to consider:

1- I don't think I have ever seen a Major-General managing his own emails. Could this have come from his EA or AA?
2- I find it odd that a Corporal is asking for advice on career to a Major-General (although the MSM could have the rank wrong).
3- We also have to put this in context. These kids of "jokes" were tolerated, wrongly, a lot more back in 2012. We cannot entirely judge his actions of 2012 against the 2021 backdrop.

I sincerely hope there is an investigation in the matter if only to find the truth.
 

NavyShooter

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I bet it's been that way since time immemorial.
This is all that came to mind...


I bet it's been that way since time immemorial.

I think you're technically right. But I think if you perused through DAOD 5019-1 & 7021-1 you might find some borderline violations as well.

I've seen some cpls in relationships with WOs and MWOs attempt to, and in some cases succeed to, throw around the weight of their relationships. It's awkward as hell, especially when leadership goes out of their way to turn a blind eye to it and JNCOs are the ones with the courage to say something.

Is a troop or young officer that a MGen or CDS dating or messing around with going to get preferential treatment? Absolutely. We've all seen how junior - mid level officers gush and trip and fall all over themselves when there's a high ranking officer visiting. No officer is going to play Russian roulette with their career by upsetting someone a general is dating.
 

dapaterson

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I have a couple of points/observations. I am not excusing the alleged behaviour however, there are things to consider:

1- I don't think I have ever seen a Major-General managing his own emails. Could this have come from his EA or AA?
2- I find it odd that a Corporal is asking for advice on career to a Major-General (although the MSM could have the rank wrong).
3- We also have to put this in context. These kids of "jokes" were tolerated, wrongly, a lot more back in 2012. We cannot entirely judge his actions of 2012 against the 2021 backdrop.

I sincerely hope there is an investigation in the matter if only to find the truth.

A few thoughts:

1 - Have written emails for senior pers, but some items do get them personally drafting replies. So not particularly unusual.
2 - Depending on the unit, there can be close relationships between different ranks; it is not all that odd for senior CAF members to offer to help or advise more junior ones with their careers.
 

PuckChaser

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2 - Depending on the unit, there can be close relationships between different ranks; it is not all that odd for senior CAF members to offer to help or advise more junior ones with their careers.
Sure, I'll buy that, but there's a bigger point. The sexually harassing response by that senior CAF member on a Corporal who highly likely thought he was genuine in his offer to provide her advice is where a line was not just crossed, but spit on. It's this exact conduct that erodes the trust in the leadership of the CAF that a General Officer would act in such a manner.

3- We also have to put this in context. These kids of "jokes" were tolerated, wrongly, a lot more back in 2012. We cannot entirely judge his actions of 2012 against the 2021 backdrop.
This specific comment was sexual harassment in 2012, much as it's sexual harassment now. This isn't 2 folks fairly close in rank where it could be joke between friends out of context.
 

SupersonicMax

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This specific comment was sexual harassment in 2012, much as it's sexual harassment now. This isn't 2 folks fairly close in rank where it could be joke between friends out of context.
Then let’s go back in all emails from 2012 and investigate all who could have construed harassment. Yes, it was reprehensible, even by 2012 standards. But it was more tolerated and sometimes even accepted. Who tells you they didn’t have some form of friendly relationship? Going direct to a MGen for career advice is weird to me. Even at my rank, I would need to know the person personally or professionally well to engage them.
 

ABSigs

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A few thoughts:

1 - Have written emails for senior pers, but some items do get them personally drafting replies. So not particularly unusual.
2 - Depending on the unit, there can be close relationships between different ranks; it is not all that odd for senior CAF members to offer to help or advise more junior ones with their careers.
If the Cpl felt comfortable reaching out directly to a MGen there had to have been a relationship already established or he would have had have indicated in some way that this was acceptable. The fact he responded would indicate that he thought this was OK.
While that kind of "joke" may have been tolerated in the 2012 timeframe, I suggest totally inappropriate for a MGen to make that kind of comment to a Cpl, even in 2012.
 

PuckChaser

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Then let’s go back in all emails from 2012 and investigate all who could have construed harassment. Yes, it was reprehensible, even by 2012 standards. But it was more tolerated and sometimes even accepted. Who tells you they didn’t have some form of friendly relationship? Going direct to a MGen for career advice is weird to me. Even at my rank, I would need to know the person personally or professionally well to engage them.
Yeah it is wierd with that rank disparity, but regardless of any personal relationship the comment was completely out of line with the facts that are out there. You're looking for assumptions to "whitewash" this or make it seem OK. If we're going to make assumptions, they can easily go the other way. It's possible Gen Vance used his rank and position to make a Cpl he felt attracted to comfortable enough to email him directly asking for career advice, and used that opportunity to make a sexual advance. A sexual advance that was unwanted as evidenced in the complaint to the Ombudsman.

If a BGen can't figure out the line between someone asking for professional career advice and a personal email, then I submit to you they shouldn't be a General Officer. It's called military bearing, and we enforce it on our young NCMs all the time. I also say this as I personally deal with plenty of superior officers day to day using first names, but know when it's time to turn that military bearing on.
 

Halifax Tar

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I get the feeling the MGen and Cpl email fiasco has allot more to it than what's on the surface, or being reported so far. And I want to believe that there had to have been a previously established relationship of some sort, be it romantic or professional or a mix of both.

I met Vance allot while I was out at the Pajiway District Center. He was there all the time with his cohort. I always found him genuine and approachable.
 

Jarnhamar

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Have to disagree about the joke thing.

Those "jokes" aren't jokes at all, whether it's back in 2012 or 10 years before that. It's a sexual advance where the perpetrator calls it a joke in a lame attempt to cover up their inappropriate advance/harassment by calling it a joke.

Workplace sexual harassment 101.

It may be more accurate to say sexual harassment was more accepted back then, but everyone knew what it was.

General Vance's first reaction appears to have been to lie about it then knowing he was caught call back to give an excuse we've (he's) been telling people isn't an excuse for the last 6 years.
 

YZT580

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retired with a payout. He was just in the news suggesting that the Navy start bracing itself for blowback on the price of the new fleet. Perhaps a new career as GG? Now that would demonstrate Justin's capacity for justice.
 
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