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Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project

Colin Parkinson

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Modernized BV206 could easily be built domestically. Carrier, recovery, Command, engineer, signal, mortar and AT versions. Hell even a light weight bridge carrier. This would mean jobs and money spent within Canada, do a slow production ramp up to keep the assembly lines working for a long time.
 

Kirkhill

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Colin P said:
Modernized BV206 could easily be built domestically. Carrier, recovery, Command, engineer, signal, mortar and AT versions. Hell even a light weight bridge carrier. This would mean jobs and money spent within Canada, do a slow production ramp up to keep the assembly lines working for a long time.

Again - This is the modernized Bv206  but now it has undergone the same transformation as the old Half Ton Pickup.  It has transitioned from a 2 Tonne payload (Half Tonne up Front and 1.5 Tonnes in the Back with an additional 2.5 Tonnes of Towing Capacity)  to an  8 Tonne payload with (I'm guessing) an additional 5 to 8 Tonnes of Towing Capacity.  This is because engine has gone from a 130 HP Ford Taurus engine, as found in the Ford Ranger,  to a 285 HP 5.9 Litre Cummins Diesel as found in Ram 3500s up to 2008 or thereabouts.  I wouldn't doubt that the more modern 350 HP 6.7 Litre would also fit.


635779412412391684-DFN-Beowolf-2.jpg


This machine is no longer just a local runabout any more than this is:

Joey-Slaughter-800x322.jpg


And, also as previously noted, we have also successfully explored local production of an offshore design by a qualified Canadian manufacturer.

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http://foremost.ca/foremost-mobile-equipment/tracked-vehicles/chieftain-c/

You no longer have a Pick-up.  You now have a Medium Truck.

One more image:

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And that is with the Ford Ranger engine.
 

CBH99

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I have absolutely zero experience in the arctic, and not much experience in winter warfare.

The trailer being pulled in that last image looks like the tires are having a hard time muscling their way through deeper snow.

Do trailers exist that have similar tracks to that of the towing vehicle?  Could make for much easier towing of trailers in winter/arctic conditions??
 

Nfld Sapper

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Considering the last pic shows what appears to be a 20ton beaver tail..yeah it would have problems in deep snow...
 

Kirkhill

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CBH99 said:
I have absolutely zero experience in the arctic, and not much experience in winter warfare.

The trailer being pulled in that last image looks like the tires are having a hard time muscling their way through deeper snow.

Do trailers exist that have similar tracks to that of the towing vehicle?  Could make for much easier towing of trailers in winter/arctic conditions??

Maybe something like this?

Front%20turn-L.jpg


http://www.sno-cat.com/tracked-trailers-Sno-Cat.html

It seems to me that that trailer, plus the Beowulf BvS10 makes a whole lot more sense than this:

1373d1338747716-ice-road-truckers-history-channel-iceroad-truckers.jpg


Especially if integrated with the Chinooks and maaaaaayyybeeee something like this:

image.jpg


http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/giant-airships-one-step-closer-to-use-in-alberta-oilsands-canada-s-north-1.2837727

Unfortunately the shape of the airship has attracted some interesting comparisons

kim1.jpg
 

a_majoor

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The Bronco can be built under licence here in Canada by GDLS (big surprise there), but I believe Foremost in Alberta had done the production of the BV-206, and any surviving ones could be sent back for refurbishment and upgrades. Re-looking at the title, "Domestic" can also be covered by MTV's, since they can swim out in floods to check isolated houses and carry rescuers and equipment, cross rubble strewn terrain (they have less ground pressure than a walking man) and get men and equipment virtually anywhere across Canada. Only in the very urbanized parts of Canada with their extensive road and rail networks would most of the advantages of the MTV be overshadowed by their slow road speeds. Trailers mounted on huge "Rolligon" tires can accompany most MTV's (and looking at Rolligons, they might be revived as a form of MTV in of themselves: http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/pages/industrial/rolligons-and-terra-tires.html)

Ships, hovercraft, helicopters or blimps could be used to move the MTV's and soldiers across longer distances, as well as forward positioning supplies. For max flex and utility, these transport means would be directly and permanently associated with the Bn.

I'm starting to think of a composite unit designed along the lines of the 1980's era Mech Infantry Battalion but with a much enhanced HQ and Sigs Coy (I'd also put the Recce Pl there so they are in the CO's pocket), and a robust Combat Support Coy and Service Support Coy so they can move and operate in isolated areas and impassable terrain (the Pioneer platoon would need to be always at 100% strength, for example, so overborne in Garrison to cover the inevitable posted for courses, leave and admin stuff). Some sort of movement or transport cell would also be needed in the HQ to facilitate the movement of the Bn via "their" ship or helicopter squadron (or whatever other magic carpets are being used to get to the disembarkation point)
 

Kirkhill

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I have been seeing this little Rampage vehicle being showcased during Op Nunalivut

Apparently it is not a developmental vehicle but a production vehicle that is manufactured by Polaris and available in Japan

http://powersportsbusiness.com/top-stories/2016/04/18/polaris-supports-operation-nunalivut/

A Polaris Rampage, an amphibious, all-terrain, all-season, global-reach platform, was deployed in support of Canadian Operation Nunalivut in the North Pole.

The vehicle got the attention of SNAFU!

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ca/2016/04/canadian-army-and-defense-research.html

Here is the Japanese spec sheet

http://www.whitehouse.co.jp/wha/rampage/

According to the google translator it weighs 1567 kg (CH-148/CH-149 and larger) with a 454 kg payload and a towing capacity of 6000 lbs (2700 kg).  With a 110 HP, 999cc engine it has a land speed of >80 km/h and is amphibious.

An interesting complement the BvS10 Beowulf.  -  an Iltis to the Beowulf's MLVW.

I wonder if anybody is going to try the Wiesel 2 up North?

Edit - more pictures of the Rampage at a Tokyo trade show.

http://en.responsejp.com/article/2015/10/18/262284.html


 

a_majoor

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So lets do a little costing out and see if this could be sold to Gerald Butts as "infrastructure" spending.

So far I have essentially advocated to either create 3 new battalions (or move one battalion each from the regiments) to the high arctic, create 3 bases (Inuvik, Resolute Bay and Moosenee), buy 240+ MTV's, and have 3 squadrons of helicopters and a small fleet of ships/shallow draft craft/hovercraft. Of course there will also need to be the ability to run an air bridge to these bases for logistics support, and enough aircraft to bring sufficient men and supplies...Enablers to support the arctic force will also be needed, including specialized comms, engineers, medical and others needed to keep things going when isolated from the support facilities in southern Canada.

Some of the costs might be shared with the Coast Guard for ships and SAR for the helicopter squadrons (although are Chinooks really adaptable enough for that role?) and some of the C-130's for the air bridge.

Thoughts?
 

daftandbarmy

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Why not think outside of the box and go for Ekranoplans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle
 

Colin Parkinson

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daftandbarmy said:
Why not think outside of the box and go for Ekranoplans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

They were meant more for the long rivers in the USSR, even they finally gave up on them. I would spend money on improving the infrastructure of the North, so you can move units there at a moments notice. We are starting to see more all weather roads up that way and learning how to do long distance road moves along with air bridging will be important. Some riverboats with jets would also help. At the same time you need to increase the reserve presence up there to provide security for your new infrastructure, till the troops arrive. 
 

Kirkhill

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Colin P said:
They were meant more for the long rivers in the USSR, even they finally gave up on them. I would spend money on improving the infrastructure of the North, so you can move units there at a moments notice. We are starting to see more all weather roads up that way and learning how to do long distance road moves along with air bridging will be important. Some riverboats with jets would also help. At the same time you need to increase the reserve presence up there to provide security for your new infrastructure, till the troops arrive.

Colin, I can't agree with you on this one.

Building roads and rail to service less than 1,000,000 people scattered over the 7,000,000 km2 that represents the 70% of Canada not currently serviced by either will never be economical.  Even here on the prairies, where some 7,000,000 people occupy less than 1,000,000 km2 governments struggle to maintain roads, most of which are gravelled at best and you still need off-road capability to cover the distances between roads.  And that is on open, hard ground, not ground that is covered by trees or water or that turns to mush when the ground warms up or is vertical rock.

We settlers just can't get our oxcarts up into that country.  But we can get Chinooks up there to complement river transportation and we can get tracked vehicles up there to lay their own roads as they go.

As an aside, I remember somebody commenting/complaining that the Chinook design hasn't changed much in 50 years and is expected to keep flying for another 50.  Maybe it is for exactly the same reason that the oxcart design hasn't changed in 5000 years.
It is a fundamentally sound design.


 

Colin Parkinson

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We are going to have to agree to disagree. [:p

We do need some allweather roads and a railway to the North. Just part of the cost of doing businesses. As for the populations, we need to wean people away from the south. We need to look at the “population bands”. Using the BC/Yukon model I am familiar with:
The main one is the South border region
2nd band is the 53/54 Latitude band –Prince George, Rupert, Edmonton, etc
3rd  band is the “Middle North” Ft Nelson, Whitehorse, Ft simpson, Yellowknife
4th Band is the North Coastline, coppermine, etc
5th band is the archipelago communities

You can make places in the 2nd band more livable fairly easily, better connectivity (internet), transit, etc

3rd band is a bit harder, again connectivity is important, services, better healthcare facilities, schools, etc.
In the 2nd and 3rd band you need to encourage non-resource related jobs to provide a cushion for the ups and down

4th and 5th band needs some connections with the south through roads, rail and airports. But also better port facilities, this is be a big part of infrastructure funding and could be done over a long period.

People need two main things to move up North, quality of life and jobs. The latter is the hardest, but good connectivity allows for more non-resource jobs or secondary jobs to support the resource jobs.
 

daftandbarmy

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Chris Pook said:
Colin, I can't agree with you on this one.

Building roads and rail to service less than 1,000,000 people scattered over the 7,000,000 km2 that represents the 70% of Canada not currently serviced by either will never be economical.  Even here on the prairies, where some 7,000,000 people occupy less than 1,000,000 km2 governments struggle to maintain roads, most of which are gravelled at best and you still need off-road capability to cover the distances between roads.  And that is on open, hard ground, not ground that is covered by trees or water or that turns to mush when the ground warms up or is vertical rock.

We settlers just can't get our oxcarts up into that country.  But we can get Chinooks up there to complement river transportation and we can get tracked vehicles up there to lay their own roads as they go.

As an aside, I remember somebody commenting/complaining that the Chinook design hasn't changed much in 50 years and is expected to keep flying for another 50.  Maybe it is for exactly the same reason that the oxcart design hasn't changed in 5000 years.
It is a fundamentally sound design.

The airport in Iqaluit has tarmac long enough to take the Space Shuttle, apparently, as an emergency option.

This is clearly far too big for normal travel requirements yet, amazingly, enough money was found to build it to keep various levels and nationalities of governments - and their space programs - happy.

Where there is a will, there is a way (and money).
 

Kirkhill

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I agree that anything is possible if cash.

The point of contention is which is cheaper:

Building, maintaining and operating trucks, roads and bridges or building and maintaining runways and heliports, wharfs, boats, barges and helicopters.

My money is on the alternatives to the roads.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Interesting conversation I had with a Canfor Engineer about the forest Practice Codes. He said that by adhering to them it cost more to build, but in the long term they saved a lot of money as road maintenance and emergency repairs dropped considerably. So if you are building a major road, invest in doing it well.

This is one road upgrade I was involved in  http://www.sydroad.com/
 

Kirkhill

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I can, actually, see a case for a small number of well constructed trunk roads.  But I still "feel" that there will still be too much space in between them to allow for a network such as we are used to in the south.
 

Colin Parkinson

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totally agree on that

Those main roads should also be supported with small airstrips ( again positioning is key) and eventually powerlines. The powerlines don’t have to be part of the main grid, but providing power to nearby communities using small Hydro like this https://www.yukonenergy.ca/energy-in-yukon/our-projects-facilities/new-hydro/pine-creek-hydro-project/
 

Kirkhill

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Colin P said:
totally agree on that

Those main roads should also be supported with small airstrips ( again positioning is key) and eventually powerlines. The powerlines don’t have to be part of the main grid, but providing power to nearby communities using small Hydro like this https://www.yukonenergy.ca/energy-in-yukon/our-projects-facilities/new-hydro/pine-creek-hydro-project/

I still prefer to come at the problem from this end: with distributed Combined Heat and Power systems.  These are with natural gas which may be locally available, but could be with diesel or propane.

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http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/cogeneration/
 

Colin Parkinson

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The big cost to the communities is often the diesel for the generators, plus it costs a lot to move the quantities required. This was the case in Atlin, 2 B trains a week as I recall. It's actually cheaper for BC Hydro to buy the electricity from the small hydro plant the Tiniglit built than to ship the fuel in. I know elsewhere, I think it was Tuk or Inuvik is running low on NG and they don't have the money to drill a new well. I quite like the idea of the small Toshiba reactors, but I know anything nuclear is dead for the next decade. http://www.gizmag.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors/20860/

Interesting link from Japan, always neat to see other solutions. Another SE Asian solution (and a shameless plug for my blog that I have neglected) http://denofzeus.blogspot.ca/2010/06/gobar-gas-only-dung-beattles-will-be.html     
 
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