Defining Foreign and Defence Policy (and hence our Military Force)

[jmt18325]

$60B is not construction costs.  As someone here (forgive me, I don't remember who) stated, the actual cost of building the ships would be more like $1.2B, which is in line with what many of our allies pay.

 

[Kirkhill]

$60B is not construction costs.  As someone here (forgive me, I don't remember who) stated, the actual cost of building the ships would be more like $1.2B, which is in line with what many of our allies pay.

I guess I am not only thick but also unclear.....

 

[Loachman]

For the same reason we *needed* Int Command?  8)

More special commands, more special dress uniforms.

Does Bombardier own Logistik?

 

[dapaterson]

I guess I am not only thick but also unclear.....

Lifecycle costing: development, acquisition, lifetime operation, overhaul, decommissioning and scrapping.

 

[jmt18325]

I guess I am not only thick but also unclear.....

Me too.  The PBO report is what they used: http://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/web/default/files/Documents/Reports/2017/CSC%20Costing/CSC_EN.pdf It sheds some light on this.  I don't know where the 1.2B figure came from.  In here the figure looks to be closer to $1.5B.  As you can see from the report, only about $27B is construction related costs.  The rest is development, maintenance, supply, and probably lifecycle related costs.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

My limited understanding is that CSEC is focused on the detection/protection stuff (all open source, that), so to me, it makes sense that if an offensive capability is ramped up, some military know-how would be useful to mix into the technical expertise already there, no?

Sounds a bit like this is part of the larger "do we train SME's to be  troops too, or get soldiers to learn enough to guide the SME's?" debate.

The thing is, those denial and protection systems can also be used to conduct offensive operations as well, a computer is a computer.

CSEC can most definitely do offensive operations, whether they do, nobody here knows for sure. 

The use of botnets (zombies) is really the poor mans answer to super computers. 

Comparing it to an electricity grid, it's the equivalent of using a six meter tall stack of batteries covering an entire football field in lieu of one large baseload powerplant to power an entire city for one night.  This would also cost more than said powerplant. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Me too.  The PBO report is what they used: http://www.pbo-dpb.gc.ca/web/default/files/Documents/Reports/2017/CSC%20Costing/CSC_EN.pdf It sheds some light on this.  I don't know where the 1.2B figure came from.  In here the figure looks to be closer to $1.5B.  As you can see from the report, only about $27B is construction related costs.  The rest is development, maintenance, supply, and probably lifecycle related costs.

It was I who developed the 1.2 B$ figure as follows: The PBO does not distinguish versions of the CSC's. Using the cost of  Type 45/Horizon class/Hobbart Air defence destroyers as baseline, which is 4 B$ each, and considering Canada plans to acquire three such versions of the CSC, I took their total price, 12B$, away from the total 27B$ amount. This left me with 15B$ for the remaining 12 GP/ASW versions, therefore 1.2B$ each of those.

 

[a_majoor]

The thing is, those denial and protection systems can also be used to conduct offensive operations as well, a computer is a computer.

CSEC can most definitely do offensive operations, whether they do, nobody here knows for sure. 

The use of botnets (zombies) is really the poor mans answer to super computers. 

Comparing it to an electricity grid, it's the equivalent of using a six meter tall stack of batteries covering an entire football field in lieu of one large baseload powerplant to power an entire city for one night.  This would also cost more than said powerplant.

Botnets have a few advantages over a dedicated cloud or supercomputer data centre, however.

1: You don't lose your own capabilities when a botnet is activated, rather you are harvesting the latent power of hundreds to millions of other people's computers

2: You can set up botnets outside of your own geographical boundaries. Want to have real fun? Establish a botnet in every computer in Iran and then unleash it. Where do you think all attention is going to turn?

3: For other do it yourself applications, you could potentially set up botnets in your own organization. The thousands of computers on the desks of every CF office represent insane amounts of computer power that isn't being used (the millions of .ppt presentations could easily be made on 486 machines), so activating them with our own botnets and running them when most people are out of the office represents a viable use of existing resources. There would have to be masking protocols to disguise the offensive use of this botnet, although the same applies if a supercomputer cluster running in some data centre is being used. A defensive botnet is an interesting idea, running tens of thousands of DND computers to sanitize networks may be a defence task at some future date.

4: Like more conventional cloud computing, botnets utilize and release resources as needed. Amazon will rent you hundreds to thousands of "cores" if you need some heavy duty computing on a temporary basis. Internal botnets could be used to run heavy duty programs like the IBM "Watson" if you don't need answers in real time like a game show contestant, which is once again a viable use of the thousands of computers that DND already has on desktops.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Like the song says, "on the road again" ...

• "Minister Sajjan to Speak on Canada’s New Defence Policy (in Vancouver)"
• "Parliamentary Secretary McCrimmon and Member of Parliament Alleslev to Speak on Canada’s New Defence Policy (in Ottawa)"
• "Minister Brison to Speak on Canada’s New Defence Policy (@ CFB Halifax)"
• "Minister Duclos to Speak on Canada’s New Defence Policy (@ CFB Valcartier)"
• "Parliamentary Secretary Romanado to Speak on Canada’s New Defence Policy (in Kingston)"

 

[MilEME09]

The fact that they are doing the nation wide tour to sell the plan is a positive sign.

 

[dimsum]

The fact that they are doing the nation wide tour to sell the plan is a positive sign.

Or that it's good optics to explain/sell the plan to a bunch of people that are generally cynical about these things (like on this forum, *ahem*).  I think one of their lessons learned is that they will be scruitinized by us, more so than the general public, to a massive extent, so might as well put their best foot forward. 

Town Halls for everyone!  Who gets to be the designated "question-asker"?

 

[Altair]

So if the LPC actually manage to provide the biggest funding increase to the CAF in decades, does that change people's viewpoint on the party or no?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So if the LPC actually manage to provide the biggest funding increase to the CAF in decades, does that change people's viewpoint on the party or no?

When a hooker tells you "I love you long time Johnny" do you believe her as well?

 

[Loachman]

So if the LPC actually manage to provide the biggest funding increase to the CAF in decades, does that change people's viewpoint on the party or no?

No.

I've seen too many hollow promises, especially Liberal hollow promises, over too many decades to believe any of this.

No.

Not even if every single thing that they promise in that defence budget actually comes to pass.

Even the most vile serial-killing rapist can do a good deed once, yet still remains a vile serial-killing rapist.

 

[George Wallace]

No.

I've seen too many hollow promises, especially Liberal hollow promises, over too many decades to believe any of this.

No.

Not even if every single thing that they promise in that defence budget actually comes to pass.

Even the most vile serial-killing rapist can do a good deed once, yet still remains a vile serial-killing rapist.

I think that you will find all who have experienced the last three or four decades of "promises" will have the same opinion, especially when it comes to the Trudeau Dynasty.

 

[Altair]

No.

I've seen too many hollow promises, especially Liberal hollow promises, over too many decades to believe any of this.

No.

Not even if every single thing that they promise in that defence budget actually comes to pass.

Even the most vile serial-killing rapist can do a good deed once, yet still remains a vile serial-killing rapist.

Ok then.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I think that you will find all who have experienced the last three or four decades of "promises" will have the same opinion, especially when it comes to the Trudeau Dynasty.

:goodpost:

 

[Loachman]

Ok then.

And I'd only be slightly less sceptical of the same promises if they issued from a Conservative government.

I was stationed in Lahr when MND Perrin Beattie visited a couple of times while formulating the last Conservative white paper. He came to the Mess for Happy Hour and spoke with us, informally and at length. He asked intelligent, well-thought-out questions, listened intently, then responded with further intelligent, well-thought-out questions, and sought our suggestions. He seemed far more open and genuine than any other politician that I have ever met.

Actually, he was the only politician that I have ever met who displayed any shred of openness and genuineness, and I've met a few.

I participated in all of the dog-and-pony shows put on by 4 CMBG for all of the MPs that visited during the development of that white paper, generally flying them from the Airfield (where the operational units were located) to the Kaserne (where the HQs - CFE and 4 CMBG - and the Canex, with its most excellent and cheap Duty Free Shop, were located), or the other way, in my Trusty Kiowa. Those flying from the Kaserne to the Airfield were all clutching several white Canex bags each. That may have been the prime motivation for many of them.

We were quite impressed by the white paper when it appeared, especially by Mr Beattie's note in the foreword about speaking with us. I still have my copy in a box somewhere. We thought many of its promises impractical and too expensive: up to twelve nuclear-powered submarines capable of patrolling under our ice, two or three hundred tanks, and a metric buttload of other fancy equipment. Even a fraction of that kit would have been nice, though.

I was still in Lahr a year or so later, when Mr Beattie was moved to another portfolio and everything was suddenly cancelled.

CFLH - the Kiowa replacement - escaped cancellation for a extra day. Somebody almost missed it.

I might believe this version after the kit and people have been delivered, if the right kit is bought from the right suppliers for the right reasons, and the right people are in the right places (operational and support units rather than more and/or more bloated HQs).

Maybe.

Perhaps.

Until then, empty words are just empty words.

It's better than the expected savaging.

Maybe.

Perhaps.

But that may be on its way in another couple of years.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Ah yes, the heady days of white papers and 20% pay hikes all around.  I still get the same giddy feeling every time PM Awesome and MinDef Swell want to magic up zillions of dollars... I wonder where they're going to come from?  Anyone for an enhanced oxygen tax? Joggers beware.

 

[a_majoor]

So if the LPC actually manage to provide the biggest funding increase to the CAF in decades, does that change people's viewpoint on the party or no?

Well since the reason for the funding increase was a certain Mr Donald J Trump, I am looking at one party with a much greater amount of respect.