Canadian soldiers fatally shoot taxi driver

[S McKee]

My faith in using Afghan customs to predict their behaviour ended when someone sunk an axe into a friend's head... seeing how I just returned from a tour with CIMIC I think I have a decent feel for people's attitudes...

Welcome back Mike!  How did the locals view our presence there?

 

[DG-41]

It all depends on the attitudes and feelings of those kids.

Agreed. It's all well and good to make predictions based on cultural and historical tendencies, and those predictions, taken on a broad sense over a long period of time and with large numbers of people, may well prove accurate. But those predictions are much less good act predicting the responses of individuals.

But I have to expect that being taken out of the asshole of the universe and being incorporated into Canadian society is going to be seen as a net positive by all involved.

What gives me particular hope in this case is that they aren't just asking for money. That makes me think that more thought is being put into it.

I think we can agree that things have changed and just because you pay the bounty doesn't necessarily mean anything just like having the chief vouch for your security at a Shura (sp) doesn't mean jack crap anymore despite what their culture said in the past.

Same deal - cultural predictions cannot accurately predict the actions of individuals.

And I CERTAINLY hope that you - and others - aren't trying to claim that just because one individual did something horrible that we are now absolved of the need to do good....

DG

 

[COBRA-6]

I spent my tour in Kabul, so these are just my observations from that area...

For the most part people seemed to understand that we were not there to rule or conquer them, but to help stabilize and develop the country. I have no doubt that seeing genuine progress being made in their standard of living goes a long way to improve their opinion of the foreigners opperating on their soil, be they ISAF/OEF, UN agencies, IO's, GO's, or NGO's. Most people on the street smiled and waved at us, many I spoke with expressed their gratitude that we would travel so far from our homeland in order to help them...

That being said I wouldn't expect much favour from the family of someone we killed, particularly from adolescent males, even if we paid out the blood money... regardless of what cultural traditions may suggest...

 

[Koenigsegg]

Quotes from Jumper:  “We are not at war with anyone, and I'm curious why this Act of War keeps being brought up as a catch all, it simply is not true.”
“Again the Canadian Government, to my knowledge, has not declared war on anyone”

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

Article 2
All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in any action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall refrain from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations is taking preventive or enforcement action.

there is of course much more, however...

I don't see it as Canada declaring war. A NATO member had been attacked by a group of people who tend to make their home a certain country.  Those people are also harboured by the closest thing to a federal government that country has.  If one nation of NATO is attacked, all the other members must contribute what they can to the efforts that are taking place.  I dont truly think Canada had to declare war, as we are part of NATO, NATO decides that for us, more or less.
The US was attacked by an identifiable group who made camp in A-stan.  The Taliban harboured this group.  The US wanted to take action, eliminate the threat and remove the Taliban from power.  As they did this, we were required, as an able nation to assist in whatever way we could.

Even if it is not a "war", that does not mean anything.  If you apply the word war to something, the rules change.  Like genocide, if a nation aknowledges genocide, they are obligated to do something about it, so they tend to use the words "Ethnic Cleansing". How do you think they helped themselves stay out of Darfur for so long?

 

[3rd Horseman]

I am not going to pass judgement on a soldier in a combat situation, he did what he had to do under the hardest of conditions I don't even care if he made a mistake as long as he had no malicious intent thats life in the war zone.

  I would like to swing the discussion away from second guessing the troops to a detailed talk about warning shots. This incident appears to be a good example on which to open up a discussion on an issue that has been bothering me for years. The issue is this: A warning shot is fine if a person knows it is a warning shot. Problem is we as soldiers know well what a round sounds like going past us thus a shot fired at us would definitely be a warning. The same does not hold true for a civilian, a shot from a weapon does not have the same sound at the "shot at" end as at the firing end thus only a trained soldier would be able to under stand the BZZZ snap and clunk. From the inside of a car you would not hear the clunk so just a faint Bzzz snap. So my question is how valid is a warning shot when the civy we are warning does not know we are firing at him? I guess muzzle flash would be one but with such small flash and the driver may not be looking at the muzzle. Are we failing in our approach to warning shots is there a better way?
This is not intended as a challenge to our soldier in the incident.

 

[COBRA-6]

I would like to swing the discussion away from second guessing the troops to a detailed talk about warning shots. This incident appears to be a good example on which to open up a discussion on an issue that has been bothering me for years. The issue is this: A warning shot is fine if a person knows it is a warning shot. Problem is we as soldiers know well what a round sounds like going past us thus a shot fired at us would definitely be a warning. The same does not hold true for a civilian, I shot from a weapon does not have the same same sound at the shot at end as at the firing end thus only a trained soldier would be able to under stand the BZZZ snap and clunk. From the inside of a car you would not hear the clunk so just a faint Bzzz snap. So my question is how valid is a warning shot when the civy we are warning does not know we are firing at him? I guess muzzle flash would be one but with such small flash and the driver may not be looking at the muzzle. Are we failing in our approach to warning shots is there a better way?
This is not intended as a challenge to our soldier in the incident.

Maybe a shotgun with first round being beanbag/shot, second round slug would be better?? Just an idea I had driving around Kabul... maybe flashbangs would help as well?

 

[GO!!!]

7) And allowing immigration (meaning the sons will become Canadian citizens) and educating them seems like a good compromise. The cost is cheap, the PR value is immense, and it's better and more noble than a plain old cash payout.

Riiiiight.

And next week they will be throwing babies under the wheels of a LAV and demanding a plane ticket and an education. In case you have'nt noticed, life is cheap in Afghanistan, and a free ticket to Canada is a tempting prize. That is a foolish precedent to set. We paid compensation to Shidane Arone's father (even though he said his son deserved to die for stealing) we can pay this guys family too, if only to bring closure to the issue, and not admit guilt, because there is none.

We (the canadian public) should not have to suffer the costs and presence of a hostile family simply because their brother/uncle's taxi driver was dumb.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Those people have been in war for years and ought to know what round sounds like close to them.  These people KNOW not to go near any western convoy period.  We've been over there long enough.
Everyone has the right to defends one's life and the life of their mates and if that means that force is escalated from 0 to kill shot then so be it.

 

[Trinity]

Are the Americans giving compensation for any Afghans they kill?

I doubt it.

And why are we?

Thats life in a war zone.  Darwinism comes at a hefty price over there. 

BTW.. who ever got upset about calling it a war.. well
they are handing out campaign medals, not just fuzzy little UN ones
so that shows the severity of the situation!!!

 

[Trinity]

So, please if you make an accusation, please back it up with fact!  There is enough garbage on the internet with adding to it.

Last time i checked, when I end a statement with a question mark, its not a FACTUAL statement.

I said do they? and then I doubt it?

Thank you for the information that says they do pay.  It helps greatly in the discussion because
we it sheds light into whether Canada should be doing the same. 

 

[DG-41]

I would like to swing the discussion away from second guessing the troops to a detailed talk about warning shots. This incident appears to be a good example on which to open up a discussion on an issue that has been bothering me for years.

You're not alone on this; I've had the same misgivings for an equally long time.

But while related, it is a separate subject. New thread?

DG

 

[KevinB]

Warning Shot's -- IIRC the JAG's deemed it unauthorized use of deadly force.

 

[HItorMiss]

Seriously Kev, an unlawful use of deadly force, when did this come down?

If you don't want to post feel free to PM it...

I don't want to second guess the AJAG on this but from the facts that have filtered down the grapevine, it seemed to us to be perfectly in line with the ROE's that I have seen for the on going Roto

 

[beach_bum]

Riiiiight.

And next week they will be throwing babies under the wheels of a LAV and demanding a plane ticket and an education. In case you have'nt noticed, life is cheap in Afghanistan, and a free ticket to Canada is a tempting prize. That is a foolish precedent to set. We paid compensation to Shidane Arone's father (even though he said his son deserved to die for stealing) we can pay this guys family too, if only to bring closure to the issue, and not admit guilt, because there is none.

This was exactly what I was thinking.  As well, it's not just a ticket and an education.  What skills do they have to be able to support themselves?  Are we going to pay for their housing, food etc as well.  Medical bills?  Where does it end?

 

[COBRA-6]

I don't want to second guess the AJAG on this but from the facts that have filtered down the grapevine, it seemed to us to be perfectly in line with the ROE's that I have seen for the on going Roto

JAGs are not always "in touch" with the realities outside the wire...

 

[geo]

From what I read in today's papers the CF or some of our delegates participated in the funeral, delivered a letter of "appology" and provided a goat... said goat being worth aprox 100$US.

The oldest son suggested the immigration & education as wards of the state
he also suggested 30000$ which is a couple of lifetime's worth of wages......

I believe that our representatives are looking at what is reasonnable and haggling on a final amount... they do not want to set a precedent that could encourage others to look at "suicide by proxy" as an alternative.