Canadian soldiers fatally shoot taxi driver

[geo]

Infantry.... Afghanistan is their country - not ours.... they don't think or behave the way we do............
as one of my frineds once put it:
Welcome to Afghanistan, please turn your clocks back one millenium.

Oh yeah.... the guy who got shot was a passenger in the TAXI, he was not at the control of the vehicle. This poor fella paid the ultimate price for the Taxi driver's reckless abandon.

 

[The Gues-|-]

The family has a different version of events, so how do we determine what happened and who is right?

That's probably why there is an investigation.  Occurrence analysis and feedback. fact from fiction, process of elimination with lies, misinterpretations and logic.  I don't know how much effort is put into solving these types of accidents in such atmospheres, but it can be figured out. 
  I hope the soldier doesn't hesitate when faced with the same situation in the future!

All the best!

 

[GO!!!]

Jumper,

We are at war. Whether you choose to admit it or not.

Let's not forget that the Korean War was a "Police Action" being fought between "advisors" and "volunteers", until the casualties picked up.

A vehicle is a weapon - I fail to see why you deny this. Locals are shot at frequently to dissuade exactly this type of behaviour. What if that taxi had contained 4 122mm rounds? It is the same as me pointing a toy gun at the civvie police, and them shooting me. No one would hold it against the cop for a second. It would be completely immaterial. You drive next to us, you die, full stop. Don't try to justify a good soldier being punished for doing his job to improve the optics.

The soldier in question did his job within the existing ROE. That means he gets a nice note to file, and carries on. That family would say just about anything to get the compensation they want, and can hardly be considered "objective". I feel bad for them, but as they say,              "In sha'allah"

 

[S McKee]

Jumper,

We are at war. Whether you choose to admit it or not.

Let's not forget that the Korean War was a "Police Action" being fought between "advisors" and "volunteers", until the casualties picked up.

A vehicle is a weapon - I fail to see why you deny this. Locals are shot at frequently to dissuade exactly this type of behaviour. What if that taxi had contained 4 122mm rounds? It is the same as me pointing a toy gun at the civvie police, and them shooting me. No one would hold it against the cop for a second. It would be completely immaterial. You drive next to us, you die, full stop. Don't try to justify a good soldier being punished for doing his job to improve the optics.

The soldier in question did his job within the existing ROE. That means he gets a nice note to file, and carries on. That family would say just about anything to get the compensation they want, and can hardly be considered "objective". I feel bad for them, but as they say,               "In sha'allah"

I not denying that the vehicle could be weapon, however what I am questioning is the attitude that we can shoot first and ask questions later, and believe as you say, that all that needs to be done is put "a nice note to file" and let's go for coffee.  Remember Somalia? That's not how our society in this day and age does business (welcome to the 21st century). As I said before, I feel the soldier will be cleared. I think he was justified, however this does not negate the fact that given the circumstances and the unfortunate outcome, this has to be investigated. Whether the family is objective or not is irrelevant, the important issue is, WE have to be seen as objective, both in the eyes of the Afghanis and the Canadian public. If we start to inflict too much collateral damage we will lose public support for the mission. Remember Canadians love their "peacekeepers" and if we fall too far from the chocolate bar and blankie role that our public loves to see us do, game over. I hate it as much as anyone else but that's the reality of the situation. Comparing Korea and Afghanistan? Two different missions two different centuries.  Please point me to the legislation that was passed in Parliament wherein we declared war on anybody. At best we could say we are partners in the "war on terrorism" however that's a pretty broad and ambiguous term with no real parameters. I mean we're still debating whether prisoners taken in this "war" are detainees or POWs and if they are subject to the rules of the Geneva Convention right? To my knowledge this soldier hasn't been punished for anything, just re-assigned pending the results of investigation - perfectly normal.

 

[monika]

I mean we're still debating whether prisoners taken in this "war" are detainees or POWs and if they are subject to the rules of the Geneva Convention right?

Wouldn't this be a moot point from the CAD perspective? I heard the Minister of Defence say this afternoon that any prisoners would be handed over to the Afghanis since it is their country, their laws, w ehave no detention facilities there, blah, blah, blah.

 

[S McKee]

Wouldn't this be a moot point from the CAD perspective? I heard the Minister of Defence say this afternoon that any prisoners would be handed over to the Afghanis since it is their country, their laws, w ehave no detention facilities there, blah, blah, blah.

Thanks I hadn't heard that. More fodder for the we're at war/we're nation building argument.

 

[KevinB]

:

I am with GO!!! and several others -- he applied the appropriate ROE - too fucking bad the guy was an idiot.
  Th eissue with the passenger is that vehicle here (Afghanistan) are a mix of LEFT and RIGHT hand drive
- so while the soldier may have beleive he was shooting at the driver, he shot the passenger.

Second guessing BS is crap -- the issue is the moment of time that the individual is force to act.  This investigation is BULLSHIT.


Oh BTW for all the people happy the CF hands the people over to the Afghani police -- they are some pretty fuckign barbaric savages -- they really do beleive that pulling itmes off your body (finger nails, finger etc.) can get results...  OEF (which TF Orion is under) is a COMBAT mission -- wake up enjoy your morning coffee...

 

[S McKee]

I guess winning "hearts and minds" is not your bag.

 

[George Wallace]

Well!  Now the brother of the fellow killed is saying that a good compensation paid his family by the Canadian Government, is to allow them immigration to Canada and free education for his six sons.

 

[COBRA-6]

Well!  Now the brother of the fellow killed is saying that a good compensation paid his family by the Canadian Government, is to allow them immigration to Canada and free education for his six sons.

:rofl:

Well you can't blame him for trying...

 

[KevinB]

I guess winning "hearts and minds" is not your bag.

:

I guess actively pursue an enemy is not yours, or taking proper defensive measure as approved by ROE either...


IF you have an issue with the ROE - write your MP (that would be Member of Parliament, not your trade Jumper).  Your treating this issue like it was a shooting in downtown Ottawa.

 

[043]

:

I guess actively pursue an enemy is not yours, or taking proper defensive measure as approved by ROE either...


IF you have an issue with the ROE - write your MP (that would be Member of Parliament, not your trade Jumper).  Your treating this issue like it was a shooting in downtown Ottawa.

Exactly like my previous post!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the chuckle Kevin!

 

[DG-41]

Well!  Now the brother of the fellow killed is saying that a good compensation paid his family by the Canadian Government, is to allow them immigration to Canada and free education for his six sons.

Well, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to this view:

1) From all accounts, the soldier involved correctly applied his ROE and did what he needed to do. (The investigation will confirm/deny this, but I'm working under an assumption of professional competence here and so will assume correct use of ROE)

2) That means (assuming this first assumption holds) that the soldier is absolved of personal responsibility, but he is still an agent of the Government of Canada - and while acting (lawfully) as that agent, he took the life of what appears to be an innocent civilian.

3) While not censurable - sometimes shit happens - it is regrettable. Nobody wants that civilian dead.

4) The taxi driver bears some responsibility here, but realistically, he probably doesn't have any resources to tap into, and the taxi driver is not currently engaged in a campaign for the hearts and minds of the local population.

5) There is an ancient tradition of "wereguild"; the paying of money, services, or other goods to offset a loss of life; especially a wrongful one. The precedent is as old as time.

6) So it isn't unreasonable for the Government of Canada to make some gesture towards the family. We used to pay German farmers for manoeuvre damage to fields, after all.

7) And allowing immigration (meaning the sons will become Canadian citizens) and educating them seems like a good compromise. The cost is cheap, the PR value is immense, and it's better and more noble than a plain old cash payout.

8) And I'll even offer up the possibility that one or more sons, now educated and Canadian citizens, might even sign up for the CF. If the mission runs that long... this might actually wind up being an "investment".

So I don't see the idea as crazy at all.

DG

 

[COBRA-6]

While RecceDG makes some good points, I am of the opinion that letting the relatives of someone Canada killed, even if killed by accident, into the country is a bad idea... if it were me, I might harbour a bit of a grudge against my new home..

 

[KevinB]

Of course they might Khadr on us...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

maybe the relatives can come here and send back their money to there "friendsand family" in A Stan.

 

[S McKee]

:

I guess actively pursue an enemy is not yours, or taking proper defensive measure as approved by ROE either...


IF you have an issue with the ROE - write your MP (that would be Member of Parliament, not your trade Jumper).  Your treating this issue like it was a shooting in downtown Ottawa.

Whoa there Kevin, got that out of your system little fella, good. No need to be nasty. First, it will be an MP investigation (not Member of Parliament, so YOU don't get confused) that will clear this fellow. Secondly, I'm not sure how you scored on reading comprehension in school, however if you bothered to read all of my posts and not just pick out the bits that pi$$ed you off, you would discover that I agree that the guy did the right thing, however the public will expect us to be accountable for the force we use. And if your upset that this incident is being investigated then my friend, the sky is not blue in your world. I don't have a problem with the ROEs either but remember "unlimited liability" it's a fact of life nowadays everything we do in Afghanistan will be scrutinized by the public and press. Because we have aggressive ROE and are in engaged in combat operations doesn't mean that we have carte blanche to do what ever we want. If you can't grasp that concept it's a good thing that your not in anymore. Don't get mad at me, that's the way things are, I don't make the shitte up. Anything else you'd like to get off your chest?

 

[DG-41]

I am of the opinion that letting the relatives of someone Canada killed, even if killed by accident, into the country is a bad idea... if it were me, I might harbour a bit of a grudge against my new home..

That's not how the concept of "wereguild" works.

We here in the West are spoiled rotten by our super-high life expectancies and insanely effective medical care. We, as a society, value individual lives much higher than we have at any point in the past.

Go back a couple of hundred years, and death was a lot more common - and being more common, people had much more sensible attitudes towards it. Or.. maybe "sensible" is the wrong word... but death as a whole was seen as a whole lot less tragic, as it was all around you. Of *course* a bunch of mothers would die in childbirth. Of *course* a certain percentage of people would die from minor infections of cuts and bruises. Of *course* people would occasionally starve to death; it was normal and natural.

And the current life expectancy in Afghanistan is 46-47 years. Canadian life expectancy is almost double that.

I think you'll find that people's attitudes towards death in Afghanistan are entirely more pragmatic than they are here in Canada. Pay the wereguild, problem solved.

Pr value?  so is this what CDN citizenship has come to?

Like it or not, in the modern world, PR is a WEAPON. You can have the strongest, most capable army in the world, but let one dead soldier being dragged behind a pickup truck get shown on TV, and that army may well pack up and leave.

Everything we do MUST MUST MUST be evaluated with an eye towards PR. It's as much a part of the battlefield as beans and bullets.

But it helps - a lot - that in this instance, "good PR" isn't at odds with operational necessities or common sense. We, the people of Canada, though the lawful actions of our lawful agent, took the life of an innocent civilian. Do we not owe his relatives some sort of compensation? Does not accepting his progeny into our welcoming bosom, and educating them to Western standards, and incorporating them into our society seem a fair trade?

By the current numbers, bringing those kids into Canada will DOUBLE their lifespan. Isn't that a good thing to do?

DG

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"By the current numbers, bringing those kids into Canada will DOUBLE their lifespan. Isn't that a good thing to do?"

It all depends on the attitudes and feelings of those kids.  I think we can agree that things have changed and just because you pay the bounty doesn't necessarily mean anything just like having the chief vouch for your security at a Shura (sp) doesn't mean jack shit anymore despite what their culture said in the past.

 

[COBRA-6]

I think you'll find that people's attitudes towards death in Afghanistan are entirely more pragmatic than they are here in Canada. Pay the wereguild, problem solved.

My faith in using Afghan customs to predict their behaviour ended when someone sunk an axe into a friend's head... seeing how I just returned from a tour with CIMIC I think I have a decent feel for people's attitudes...