Canada asks for Chinook design changes; military expert worry about delay

[beenthere]

We would probably do better in the long run by getting a small fleet of D models--the 6 or whatever that are being negotiated for at the present and to wait out procurement of the 16 new aircraft until we get some experience.

 

[beenthere]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080304/Afghanistan_helicopters_080304/20080304?hub=Canada The next press release will probably be that it's a go for the Chinooks. In order to make this 6 pack work someone is going to have to organize a concerted effort to establish a safe, efficient no frills operation to deliver troops and material.

 

[geo]

Obtaining helicopters such as the Chinmook is just the very beginning of the struggle.
Filling out all the crew & maintenance positions is going to be the kicker... Our own Chinook crews have moved on to other things over the last decade.....gotta start from scratch.... The prospects are not encouraging.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Obtaining helicopters such as the Chinmook is just the very beginning of the struggle.
Filling out all the crew & maintenance positions is going to be the kicker... Our own Chinook crews have moved on to other things over the last decade.....gotta start from scratch.... The prospects are not encouraging.

I suspect the Griffons will get parked and the crews retrained.

 

[GAP]

In regards to the Griffons....is there still not an armed escort necessary?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In regards to the Griffons....is there still not an armed escort necessary?

I seem to remember that people here were saying the Griffion would not be able to keep up to the Chinooks?

 

[Loachman]

As I have said before, "Escort" is not the best term.

"Escorts" do not necessarily have to fly in the same formation, nor do the Chinooks have to fly at Vne even if they are capable for a given mission.

Transit is done above effective small arms range. The vulnerable periods are take-off/climb and descent/landing. "Escorts" can depart early to arrive at the LZ in advance of the lift hels, which gives time to recce the LZ prior to arrival of the big fat prime targets Chinooks. This is similar to how pathfinding was conducted in the Kiowa days.

As for crewing/maintaining, there is obviously going to be a training period required and pers will have to come from within the Tac Hel community so some accommodation will be necessary. How that will be done is mere speculation at this point.

 

[beenthere]

I don't know much about the threat environment over there but I would think that an armed escort wouldn't be necessary. Getting messed up in bad weather and running into mountains would probably be a bigger threat. It's a threat that is self generated and really hard to defend yourself from. One thing that enhances this kind of threat is having people crewed up together for too long. They develop neat little techniques and soon start to get a feeling that they are unique. Pretty soon they become invincible. Some people call it teamwork but it's dangerous.
Not having enough technical knowledge of the aircraft is a very real threat. Finding yourself sitting in the boondocks with a snag that you can't fix because you don't know how the thing works provides an invitation for anyone who doesn't like you to come over and take some shots at a stationary target. All of the sophisticated defense systems aren't worth a nickel if you're sitting on a rockpile in a helicopter that won't move because someone doesn't know what all of the little gizmos do and how to make them work when they fail.

 

[Bograt]

As for crewing/maintaining, there is obviously going to be a training period required and pers will have to come from within the Tac Hel community so some accommodation will be necessary. How that will be done is mere speculation at this point.

.... or pipes.

 

[Sf2]

Pipes don't become aircraft captains overnight....but nice try

 

[beenthere]

As for the escort idea. If the Chinook was flying a resupply mission it would be landing in close proximity to a FOB which is already secure to the degree that troops can operate there and the flight would originate at a similarly secure base so an escort would hardly be necessary. Having another helicopter airborne while the mission is in progress for crew recovery in the event that it had to land en route because something went wrong would be more appropriate.
I'm more tech. than tactical and I may be wrong on this but I  think that keeping the mission simple would be better than having a whole cluster of aircraft trying to stay coordinated.

 

[tomahawk6]

Some of this information woud fall under OPSEC. How a Chinook would operate in Afghanistan just doesnt need to be discussed. Just my .02 .

 

[Good2Golf]

Some of this information woud fall under OPSEC. How a Chinook would operate in Afghanistan just doesnt need to be discussed. Just my .02 .

Yup, on the edge, T6.  Let's not go further with tactics of any force element, folks.  We wouldn't talk about how LAVs fight the ground...same applies for aviation, or other force elements.

The Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Kirkhill]

And WRT LAV/Chinook comparisons......I hope I never see the headline announcing the loss of 44 troops in the back of a Chinook and the subsequent inquiry discussing how these things were supposed to reduce casualties.

 

[tomahawk6]

Exactly my concern Kirkhill. Aviation is great but bad things happen in flight just as they do on the ground. Our worst days have occured when a big chopper went down whether it was shoot down or some kind of mechanical error. Having Chinooks will enhance the battlefield logisitics capabilities of the CF but dont get Chinooks to avoid IED's. The IED issue will solve itself with aggressive ground combat operations to find and take out bomb factories and arms caches.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The latest news is that Canada has rejected the offer of six Blackhawk's as an interim measure until the Chinook's arrive. More can be found here:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=4a3b9b51-287f-48ca-bc58-28adcea27d56&k=4430

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Wouldn't replacing the Griffions with Blackhawks be a possibility? More often than not we will be working with the US, seems we might benefit from part commonality and training?

 

[Jammer]

Lotsa Sea Stallions sitting in storage in Arizona...

 

[OldSolduer]

Replacing Griffons with BlackHawks.....perish the thought!
Politics is why we have the Griffon and why we will retain it.
Am I being too honest?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Replacing Griffons with BlackHawks.....perish the thought!
Politics is why we have the Griffon and why we will retain it.
Am I being too honest?

brutally so.......