Boot, General Purpose (Mk III acting/interim replacement)

[PMedMoe]

It may boiled down to a matter of timing.  When was 'said' chit issued?  Did the CF come out with an improved boot after the chit was issued?  How long is the chit good for?  I had a chit for Vibram soles (on my two new pair of Mk III's through Base Clothing) and orthotic inserts while in Petawawa.  Now that is no longer on my docs.  Was it "Time sensitive"?

I'll be glad when the CF comes out with an "improved" boot, although pretty much anything would be an improvement over the WWB, for me at least.

The medical chit on my clothing docs disappeared between Petawawa and Kingston.  I just figured it was like Mission Impossible....."This chit will self destruct in 5 years, 4, 3, 2....." ;D

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Ok, we're dealing with a couple of issues here, clearly. First, the policy/directive (hate/love it) is either not posted clearly, promulgated properly, or acknowledged by those in position to enforce said policies. This forum should, in lieu of any other means, allow for all ranks on this board to get the latest info on current policy and where to find it on DWAN/CANFORGEN etc. Obviously, some members/entire garrisons have nothing to arm themselves with WRT something black and white when challenged by higher ranks who have nothing better to do than check for boot uniformity. If someone in the know could consolidate a list of the current policy and/or directives found on DWAN, I am sure a number of pers would be better off across the CF.

Second, it is still unclear what most soldiers are to do who fall in the middle of the bell curve when it comes to boot sizes and general fitness (ie no clear injuries/chronic issues with lower extremities) but who find that the current batch of issued boots do not fit right, cause blisters/chafing/bloody sores, regardless of socks, insoles, and conditioning of the feet (one could argue that feet will be blister-proof given enough time on the trail with a ruck, but...). The current system caters to the lowest common denominator, hitting a select few for satisfaction. Also, it seems in most cases injury prevention is something not even entertained as an option (beyond what is expected to be suffered in the line of duty for most CA and some CSS trades, given what they do). Great example the individual who was told to operate in boots two sizes too small - unforgivable. Only when the feet/ankles/knees/hips are beat up enough does the system kick in to help out the individual with a "fix".
So coming back to the original question - while the policy seems pretty clear on who is entitled to wear COTS boots, what about a good number of soldiers who are shredding up their feet with the current selection of boots (GP) (seems even those who are on their feet a lot eg. inf types)?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What were you doing in SQFT?

ALQ Residency

 

[armyvern]

The current system caters to the lowest common denominator, hitting a select few for satisfaction. Also, it seems in most cases injury prevention is something not even entertained as an option (beyond what is expected to be suffered in the line of duty for most CA and some CSS trades, given what they do). Great example the individual who was told to operate in boots two sizes too small - unforgivable. Only when the feet/ankles/knees/hips are beat up enough does the system kick in to help out the individual with a "fix".

A "select few" = 80% - there's that old 80% satisfaction ratio once again.

Let's clear up this example right now. The system, in this member's case, CLEARLY is in favour of injury prevention. HE WAS/IS entitled to LPOd boots that fit WITHOUT question or chit as it says in the CFSM (policy).

The problem here was not the "system"; it IS dinosaur instructors who disregard what the system says WILL occur and ordered him to "carry on" without availing him of the system that's there to look after people like him. And, believe you me, the instructors are aware that system exists.

Unforgiveable yes. A system problem ... no. More a problem of "dinosaur" mentality which is costing more than this member the health of his feet/knees/ankles/back. Which I can NEVER understand ... after all ...

"A soldier marches on his stomach ... WITH his damned feet." Look after them for cripes sake.
Those feet are CRITICAL to mission success.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

AV,

Ack your points. You may have misunderstood the intent of my previous post - I didn't intend to lump the one example of the troop who was forced to wear smaller boots into the bigger context here. That example and incident is just outrageous, full stop - and the system is there to prevent such an occurrence from happening. I never said it didn't. It clearly was great fault with the leadership in this particular case. But I doubt, while this one was extreme, it was an isolated case in the bigger scheme of things. I.e. back to the new GP boots and for a number of cases, the WWB as well - here we have boots that are causing injuries even when otherwise properly fitted, and thus are having an impact on a soldier's effectiveness. However, in most cases, said soldiers have no recourse, as the boots fit size-wise and the indvs do not otherwise have chronic injuries that would warrant a visit to the MO. Thus, a couple COAs present themselves: suck it up, buttercup and hope that your feet heal up; fake chronic pain and hope for a diagnosis (not endorsing this one); or circumvent policy (and perhaps CoC orders) and acquire third-party boots at own expense. This is what I was driving at before.

 

[opie_cic]

I was just issued a pair of the GP boots, and I had a couple of questions about them.  And I did read through the entire thread (no small feat) so I am fairly confident I won't be asking something that has already been answered.

That said,

The boots came with two sets of insoles, but they are the same, with blue on the bottom of the heel.  I notice that someone had posted pictures of the boots with the insoles, one set was blue on the bottom, the other had red.  So am I to wear both sets of insoles, or is one a replacement after the first wears out?

I also see that they stretch a lot, my eyelets were touching after the second time putting them on.  With that in mind, would it be best to wear just the one pair of insoles until they stretch out more, and then put the second set in in order to make the boot a little more snug?

And finally, the feel really nice, but I noticed they put a lot of pressure on my heel, not something that feels like it will develop into a blister, just.. pressure.  I understand this could be due to that chuck of leather around the heel that people have mentioned.  And since they boots allegedly have no breaking in period, am I stuck with this.

My Mk III's were 10/10-1/2 E, same as these ones, should I take them back and go a size down, to avoid this stretching?

Thanks for your help folks!

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

My $0.02. The boots have a break-in period. I had to uncross the laces (straight up two speedlace loops) at the ankle to allow the thick leather to move out, and not in into my ankle. The boots have not been in the field, so the break-in period is slower, but they are softening up bit by bit. Good news is that they should last a good while ( all things being equal).
The extra set of insoles are a spare, to be swapped when the boots get wet (from outside elements or perspiration). The instructions go further into the use and care of the insoles. If you have to use two sets on on top of the other for the boots to fit, somehow get the system to fit you a new set of boots that actually work with one pair of insoles, or pay up for e.g. Custom SOLE Ultras (extra-thick workboot insoles).
Does your heel feel like it is 'cupped' inside the boot or not seating properly? If the pressure means that the heel is securely seated in the back of the boot with no significant movement, you should be good to go. Those with experience (good and bad) with the GP Boot in the field and/or BFTs should be able to tell you how the heel should/shouldn't feel.
Are you wearing the black/green or black/wool sock system?

 

[chris_log]

I was just issued a pair of the GP boots, and I had a couple of questions about them.  And I did read through the entire thread (no small feat) so I am fairly confident I won't be asking something that has already been answered.

That said,

The boots came with two sets of insoles, but they are the same, with blue on the bottom of the heel.  I notice that someone had posted pictures of the boots with the insoles, one set was blue on the bottom, the other had red.  So am I to wear both sets of insoles, or is one a replacement after the first wears out?

I also see that they stretch a lot, my eyelets were touching after the second time putting them on.  With that in mind, would it be best to wear just the one pair of insoles until they stretch out more, and then put the second set in in order to make the boot a little more snug?

And finally, the feel really nice, but I noticed they put a lot of pressure on my heel, not something that feels like it will develop into a blister, just.. pressure.  I understand this could be due to that chuck of leather around the heel that people have mentioned.  And since they boots allegedly have no breaking in period, am I stuck with this.

My Mk III's were 10/10-1/2 E, same as these ones, should I take them back and go a size down, to avoid this stretching?

Thanks for your help folks!

Only wear the one set of insoles, the second is an extra pair. Honestly, go buy your own as the issued ones are garbage. I wear orthotics courtesy of her most gracious majesty the Queen, however there are plenty of good ones out there. I know you're CIC and won't be doing a heckuva lot of marching/rucking etc however I suggest you invest in some good insoles, your feet, knees and back will thank you. Check out Marks Work Wearhouse, they have a wide selection.

Also, the boots do stretch quite a bit. I had that problem, got a good fitting fair then they ended up so loose my feet we slipping around in them. The eyelets shouldn't be touching, however, so it sounds like your boots are way too big (unless you have small calves).

As for the heel pressure, yeah, they are blister-makers. The boots do have a break in period and the leather heel thingy will soften a bit, but if you feel it now and it is noticeable you will end up with a nasty blister the first time you walk a distance in them.

Again, I know you're a CIC type and the GP boots suit your needs....but I would suggest going out and purchasing a pair of your own boots and just wear those (if you can get away with it). The issued boots generaly are junk and if you're having issues now....it'll only get worse.

 

[danchapps]

Opie, I would suggest just wearing 1 set of insoles. As well, even though the eyelets are touching there will still be some stretch in the leather, this is unavoidable unfortunately. I have the same issue with mine, and I've had them for about 18 months now. After some time you'll get used to it. As well, the little pressure you feel in the back, same thing happened to me when I had my ankle injury. The way I ended up solving it (my case only, won't happen for everyone I'm sure of that much) was to have a wedge added onto my orthotics. As not everyone has orthotics (and I really hope you will never need them either, they suck) Best bet would be to try and play with the tension on the laces in certain spots. I found (prior to my orthotics) that having the part where the little "V" is notched out a little looser helped, and having a very tight upper. Again, it's something you might have to play with to get just right. Overall I like the boots, and after some time you won't notice these issues. If after a long time you still notice some problems with them feel free to drop by clothing and ask if you can try another size on and compare.

Just a quick question, when you are wearing your GP's are you wearing the green and black sock system, or have you elected to go with a cotton sock with grey wool, or just cotton socks? Sometimes the socks you wear affect the feel of the boot as well.

Regards,

Chapeski

 

[Snaketnk]

When trying on boots, you definitely should (I dare say must) allow for the stretch of the boot by leaving an inch or so between the eyelets. Also, compensating for stretch throughout the life of the boot allows you to wear whatever type of sock you'd like while keeping circulation to your feet. On that note, you're probably best off trying the boots on with the thicker of the socks you intend to wear.

I took none of this into consideration when I got sized, but the good people at clothing enlightened me.

 

[danchapps]

When trying on boots, you definitely should (I dare say must) allow for the stretch of the boot by leaving an inch or so between the eyelets. Also, compensating for stretch throughout the life of the boot allows you to wear whatever type of sock you'd like while keeping circulation to your feet. On that note, you're probably best off trying the boots on with the thicker of the socks you intend to wear.

I took none of this into consideration when I got sized, but the good people at clothing enlightened me.

I feel part of the issue with the eyelets being snug together is that the manufacturer may or may not have taken into consideration that some of us have smaller calves than others. In my personal opinion they should have reduced the amount of material on the uppers of the boot to allow this to happen. Surely they provide us with enough lace to be able to make it snug, why not have less leather to better make use of the lace. Just my thought. (Snaketnk, I was also in Clothing for a while, so I know where you are coming from when they suggested the thicker sock deal.)

 

[opie_cic]

Are you wearing the black/green or black/wool sock system?

and

Just a quick question, when you are wearing your GP's are you wearing the green and black sock system, or have you elected to go with a cotton sock with grey wool, or just cotton socks? Sometimes the socks you wear affect the feel of the boot as well.

WRT those asking about my socks, the first time I wore my Mk III's for any length of time was on my MOC, because before that not all of CIC was in CADPAT, I think we were one of the first times an entire course was in CADPAT, at least in Central region.  Anyway, I'm digressing.  Before then I used to wear a pair of white sport socks underneath my grey wool socks (can't stand the itch) but i noticed about midway through the course I was getting a lot of pain in my shins, so I switched out the sport socks with the black dress socks (much thinner), and the pain was gone within a day, I'm guessing due to the pressure difference, as the previous combination actually left indents in my legs for a week afterward.

Since then I've gotten a hold of the sock system, and its much better, although I've never worn the thermal socks, just the liner and the green one, even on my cold weather course, I never had a problem.

So in response to the question, yes I wear the sock system.

I know you're CIC and won't be doing a heckuva lot of marching/rucking etc

294 Squadron in Chatham, my old unit, actually does a lot... they've done Nijmegan twice, Washington twice, and they're headed to Holland again this year.  I hope to go with them one of these times.  But I agree, CIC doesn't do a whole of it, and I'm probably splitting hairs, but I had to make sure you knew we're not ALL lazy  but I thought you would be interested in such a fact.

I feel part of the issue with the eyelets being snug together is that the manufacturer may or may not have taken into consideration that some of us have smaller calves than others.

I'm frequently told I have chicken legs.  After six years of wear my Mk III's (which I skillfully acquired from Blackdown) also have the eyelets touching, but they were still snug.  My main concern is if I work at a CSTC this summer, having my boots become looser over the course of 2 months.  I'm thinking I should just bring along my Mk III's in case, but damnit this GP's are easy to get in and out of.

I would suggest going out and purchasing a pair of your own boots and just wear those (if you can get away with it).

I was looking pretty closely at a pair of the 5.11 Tactical boots, and was pleased when I saw the quote regarding purchasing your own footwear, and subsequently disappointed when I saw that it had been removed.

So all in all, it sounds like perhaps I should go in and a pair that is not as wide? a 10-10 1/2D as opposed to E?  Or just throw these in the closet and stick with the Mk III's?

 

[chris_log]

294 Squadron in Chatham, my old unit, actually does a lot... they've done Nijmegan twice, Washington twice, and they're headed to Holland again this year.  I hope to go with them one of these times.  But I agree, CIC doesn't do a whole of it, and I'm probably splitting hairs, but I had to make sure you knew we're not ALL lazy  but I thought you would be interested in such a fact.

I was worried someone might take that the wrong way. I know you guys did do that kinda stuff just not to the extent other people in the CF do. Kinda neat to hear that you guys send people to Nijmegan, is it a generic 'CIC' team or a corp team composed of cadets? And IMHO, I wouldn't want to do a march like Nijmegan in the GP's. No way.

I was looking pretty closely at a pair of the 5.11 Tactical boots, and was pleased when I saw the quote regarding purchasing your own footwear, and subsequently disappointed when I saw that it had been removed.

Try on a bunch of different pairs and styles, don't go for LCF. I had three pairs of Rocky's courtesy of the CF, hated them and they sit gathering dust in a basement forever to remain unused. I have a pair of Magnums and a pair of SWATS now and they work well for what I need them for.

 

[opie_cic]

I was worried someone might take that the wrong way. I know you guys did do that kinda stuff just not to the extent other people in the CF do. Kinda neat to hear that you guys send people to Nijmegan, is it a generic 'CIC' team or a corp team composed of cadets? And IMHO, I wouldn't want to do a march like Nijmegan in the GP's. No way.

Don't worry, no offense was taken.. I am well aware that not all CIC officers represent the CF in the way we'd like.  There is talk of that being taken care of, but who knows...

As for the march, it was made up of.. 10 I think?  Two officers, one female CI and the rest were cadets.  The first year they did it was the one where the march was canceled after 1 day (and two deaths) due to the extreme heat.  They went again the following year and finished the march.  They were part of the Canadian contingent, and as I understand only one cadet unit is allowed to go.  I guess there isn't a lot of interest for it.

don't go for LCF

Forgive my ignorance, but what does LCF mean?

 

[chris_log]

As for the march, it was made up of.. 10 I think?  Two officers, one female CI and the rest were cadets.  The first year they did it was the one where the march was canceled after 1 day (and two deaths) due to the extreme heat.  They went again the following year and finished the march.  They were part of the Canadian contingent, and as I understand only one cadet unit is allowed to go.  I guess there isn't a lot of interest for it.

Neato.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does LCF mean?

Look Cool Factor.

 

[danchapps]

Opie, I'm glad to hear you are wearing the sock system. many people don't, and that's their choice, but the system does in fact work. The only time I've worn the extreme cold weather sock was on my SQ, and it was -40 or so out, plus the muckluck. I had some chilly feet until I started moving (but alas the muckluck isn't the GP so that's the end of that bit.)

If you are at Blackdown again this summer and have issues with your boots then by all means stop in at Borden Clothing and they will help you out. They are used to seeing CIC come in looking for stuff (that was where I was at clothing in case you are interested.) Contrary to some popular belief Borden's Clothing Stores is pretty good at getting peoples needs sorted out. They are your fet, and you need to take care of them. Give the GP's a shot this summer, as I said, I've had mine for about 18 or 19 months now and they seem to be doing the job for me. Worse comes to worse you could switch back to the MK III's if you really need to for the rest of the summer.

 

[opie_cic]

Look Cool Factor.

Ah shit I knew that, too. 

Does anyone have experience with the 5.11's that they look cool but suck for anything besides that?  The video certainly made some strong arguments for the boots.

 

[chris_log]

Ah crap I knew that, too. 

Does anyone have experience with the 5.11's that they look cool but suck for anything besides that?  The video certainly made some strong arguments for the boots.

There are a couple of boot threads on the site and a couple of geardos. Search for those threads and give them a gander, may help. I give the Magnums a thumbs up, and so far the SWATS are comfy do. Went for a 'nature' walk with my ruck with them out of the box, only one very minor red spot. Thats never happened for me before.

 

[medaid]

Don't go 5.11 they'll blow out.

Magnum, Danner, Belleville... Altama... what ever else. Your feet, you wear it, and you decide.

 

[chris_log]

Don't go 5.11 they'll blow out.

Magnum, Danner, Belleville... Altama... what ever else. Your feet, you wear it, and you decide.

I don't often agree with MedTech, but here I will. 5.11's are NOT designed for any kind of 'army' use and will fall apart on you (they aren't well made either, I was not impressed with them). Magnums and SWATs are also more 'police' boots then 'army' boots but they hold up better. I prefer boots that feel like athletic shoes, some others prefer heavier and sturdier boots, it's really a personal thing.