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Alternate for the CIC

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dgrayca said:
I know there are some, but they're more the exception than the rule.  For every 1 significantly out of shape CIC officers you can think of, how many in-shape can you think of?  I bet you the incident of obesity in the CIC is lower than the general public for starters.

I attended a CIC MOC course grad parade a few months ago and took a picture of each platoon.  Every CIC officer takes this course, so this is a good sample of this year's crop of CIC officers in the Atlantic provinces.  Looking at them now, out of 36 (+/-) naval candidates I see two who I would describe as a bit chubby; about four out of a similar number of army candidates; and perhaps five or six in about 40 air force candidates.  When I say chubby, I mean just that, not obese.  There were none who looked as if they were patently unfit.

I think the CIC is a victim of a lot of peoples' selective memories: don't like the CIC in the first place, see one fat officer, and assume we're all like that.  But the numbers just don't bear it out.
 
Neill McKay said:
I think the CIC is a victim of a lot of peoples' selective memories: don't like the CIC in the first place, see one fat officer, and assume we're all like that.   But the numbers just don't bear it out.

Bang on. 
 
Out of the numerous overweight CIC's I met when involved in cadets, only one had a medical condition that made him that way. The others, I'm sure, had something to do with having a few donuts and coffee's a few times per night X 2 nights a week when they could have been out on the parade square with us, or doing PT with us. Or taking off for breakfast at a pub when we were all out on an field exercise(good supervision)

Now keep in mind that the ones I am referring to were in back in 90-94, so I am not sure if they still are.
 
Springroll said:
Out of the numerous overweight CIC's I met when involved in cadets, only one had a medical condition that made him that way.

It may surprise you to learn that most CIC officers don't share information about their medical conditions with cadets.

(It may also surprise you to lean that there are usually more pressing issues for a CIC officer to look after during a training night than joining the cadets on the parade square.  There's a whole other world in the orderly room or ship's office that very few cadets ever see.)
 
Springroll said:
Out of the numerous overweight CIC's I met when involved in cadets, only one had a medical condition that made him that way. The others, I'm sure, had something to do with having a few donuts and coffee's a few times per night X 2 nights a week when they could have been out on the parade square with us, or doing PT with us. Or taking off for breakfast at a pub when we were all out on an field exercise(good supervision)

Now keep in mind that the ones I am referring to were in back in 90-94, so I am not sure if they still are.

Based on the fact that you are drawing your experience from when you were a cadet, I can probably guess that your exposure to CIC officers was extremely limited.  You are probably basing your generalization on the officers from your unit and perhaps from a cadet camp or two (but I doubt that since you are refering to parade squares and field exercises only).

So, perhaps 3, maybe 4 officers?  Out of a body of over 2500 officers... so 0.16% of the population.  Doesn't sound like very sound research to me.

In fact, while units in big cities tend to have larger officer bodies, small towns (which make up a lot of Canada) tend to have small units with some times as few as 1 CIC officer, so you could be even basing your fact on 1 officer.

I am basing my opinion on 7 years as a cadet, army and air, 2 years as a CI and 9 years as a CIC officer (3 of which as a CO) having met numerous CIC officers through courses, camps, seminars, conferences etc.  I can say that the majority of the CIC body is in relatively good shape.  But, like your statements, that is still anecdotal.
 
Neill McKay said:
It may surprise you to learn that most CIC officers don't share information about their medical conditions with cadets.

(It may also surprise you to lean that there are usually more pressing issues for a CIC officer to look after during a training night than joining the cadets on the parade square.   There's a whole other world in the orderly room or ship's office that very few cadets ever see.)

I assisted the CIC's in the stores room for the end part of my last year of cadets. I was also friends with one of the CIC's daughters and that is how I was aware of his medical condition. Sorry, I should have said that.

Also just to clarify, I am not saying all of them are over weight, just saying that the ones I did know that were overweight, only one had a medical condition. I have met a good mix of both fit and unfit, but the majority I have met have been on the fit side of the spectrum.
 
Discuss this in a mature matter(which you have done so far).  I would hate to have to lock this because members are behaving like children once again.

If there is any talk bordering sexism you will be generously provided with a formal warning.  You have been warned.
 
dgrayca said:
So, perhaps 3, maybe 4 officers?   Out of a body of over 2500 officers... so 0.16% of the population.

It's worse than that: the strength of the CIC is closer to 4500 (unless there's been a drastic decline in the last five years).
 
Kyle Burrows said:
I would hate to have to lock this because members are behaving like children once again.

Moderator or not, comming from a 14 year-old doesn't mean much !

Neill McKay said:
I think the CIC is a victim of a lot of peoples' selective memories: don't like the CIC in the first place, see one fat officer, and assume we're all like that.   But the numbers just don't bear it out.

I am not using selective memory here.  I see CIC officers every day at this time of year and most bring credit to the CF and the cadet movement with their phsycal apearance and their state of dress. I remember when i was a cadet , our CIC officers were all in great shape and looked every bit the part.  I was in no way generalizing.
 
One would expect the officers to set the example and not resort to petty jabs.
 
Quote,
Moderator or not, comming from a 14 year-old doesn't mean much !

So if he would just lie and put 58 for his age THAN he would be correct?
The kid [ sorry, couldn't resist ;D] has been doing a fine job of keeping the most frustrating forum on this board on the straight and narrow, so lighten up on him, please.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Quote,
Moderator or not, comming from a 14 year-old doesn't mean much !

So if he would just lie and put 58 for his age THAN he would be correct?
The kid [ sorry, couldn't resist ;D] has been doing a fine job of keeping the most frustrating forum on this board on the straight and narrow, so lighten up on him, please.

Sorry Kyle and Bruce...forgot to put the   ;D at the end

Edited to protect Bruce's feelings.....
 
Quote,
Sorry Kyle and bruce...
....well don't give him THAT much..... :)
 
Sorry,  

Your right.   totally read that the wrong way.   My bad.

I'm gonna go mark time for a couple of hours   :)

cheers

PV

edited: ....to change the post completely!

 
Maybe you should reread his post and actually pay attention to what he wrote.
 
So lets see if I can sum up the last little bit.   Generally we acknowledge that a good number of CIC officers do maintain a physical fitness level that lends credit to the image of the CF.   There are noted examples of CIC officers who, for whatever reason, do not maintain an adequate fitness level which may impact their ability to lead by example in a youth organization with physical fitness as one of its corner stones.   If I may stir the pot a little on this one, here is my thought, (and how I've councilled some of my fellow CIC officers in the past).   If you choose to and are called to wear the uniform of the CF you should be capable of meeting a minimum physical standard EQUAL to that of what we expect from our cadets (i.e. the army cadet fitness test), I would recommend that they be able to perform to a standard equal to that of what is expected of our PRes and RegF counterparts but there is not policy or standard on that at this time.   For those who are unable to meet the fitness standards, perhaps their contributions are best made as civilian instructors and they can fill roles in the administration and supply components, which are valuable and essential support tools for the cadets at large.   They can also then teach in their specialties as appropriate.   We should not look to preclude individuals participation in the CCM, but I think that we owe our cadets the best possible image we can present, and we owe the same to the CF.   This often falls to policing our own, and a gentle nudge from one officer to another does help, I've both nudged and been nudged in the past.   For those simply unable to meet a minimum fitness requirement, there should be some administrative action, or at least the use of common sense (i.e. if the uniform is stretching at the seams, get it re-twilored so at least it looks cleanly dressed).   But ultimately I'd support more stringent fitness requirements, and I don't think we'd have any fewer officers quite frankly, too many of my junior officers have left for other elements of the ResF because they don't want to be associated with "the doughnut crowd" in the CIC.   Perhaps water/juice and fruit at breaks at RCIS would be better than coffee and timbits which have become so common, and for those attending/facilitating courses, no more playing duck duck goose for PT. ;D   In an organization where image is a great part of public relations, we must ensure we send the right message and ensure it is consistent.
 
Bean said:
If you choose to and are called to wear the uniform of the CF you should be capable of meeting a minimum physical standard EQUAL to that of what we expect from our cadets (i.e. the army cadet fitness test), I would recommend that they be able to perform to a standard equal to that of what is expected of our PRes and RegF counterparts but there is not policy or standard on that at this time.   For those who are unable to meet the fitness standards, perhaps their contributions are best made as civilian instructors and they can fill roles in the administration and supply components, which are valuable and essential support tools for the cadets at large.   They can also then teach in their specialties as appropriate.

This all makes very good sense.  One shortcoming I see, however, is that civilian instructors aren't eligible for any training beyond the supply and administration short courses.  I'd much rather have more people qualified at least to the LTQ level but it's very hard to justify loading civilians on a CF course, especially if there are CF members available to go.  The choice seem to be between large and useful officers who portray a poor image for the Forces and set a poor example for the cadets, or large and somewhat less useful civilian instructors who portray no image for the Forces and set a poor example for the cadets.  I'm not sure that the image issue outweighs (no pun intended!) the training issue.
 
Neill McKay said:
This all makes very good sense.   One shortcoming I see, however, is that civilian instructors aren't eligible for any training beyond the supply and administration short courses.   I'd much rather have more people qualified at least to the LTQ level but it's very hard to justify loading civilians on a CF course, especially if there are CF members available to go.   The choice seem to be between large and useful officers who portray a poor image for the Forces and set a poor example for the cadets, or large and somewhat less useful civilian instructors who portray no image for the Forces and set a poor example for the cadets.   I'm not sure that the image issue outweighs (no pun intended!) the training issue.

Not to mention that there are positions to which a CI/CV cannot hold i.e. Training Officer or Commanding Officer.
 
In certain circumstance a CI can hold the TrgO position.

cheers

PV

 
In an issue of Cadence last year they made mention of the number of corps and squadrons in Northern region which have no CIC staff due to the lack of interest/ availability of training. But thatès neither here nor there. The origanal title of this forum was "An Alternativefor CIC." alot of this has been used to voice the opinion that we're all fat, lazy and what have you. I think more suggestions for improvement should be made as opposed to more examples of the let downs in the CIC. and back to the origanal point, I have read that in Great Briton and Australia the cadet units are staffed by civilians with special commissions, IF any one here has been part of an overseas cadet corps like that I would like to here about how the feel this compares to having a uniformed military presence such as the CIC. Look forward to hearing from you all.
 
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