A
aesop081
Guest
toyotatundra said:
Out of everything that was posted, that is what you decided to respond to ?
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A Year In, And Frustrated
- Thread starter toyotatundra
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Out of everything that was posted, that is what you decided to respond to ?
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toyotatundra said:
Now if you were in your late thirties, even forties, that statement might have a ring of truth. In your late 20's? Nada, you're not even a late bloomer for officer.
toyotatundra said:
What is this 'pre-military work history'? Inquiring minds want to know.
I know McDonalds fry cookers\ burger flippers that became officers. What could have been in your background work history that was so dastardly that it, and it alone, kiboshed your chance of becoming a self proclaimed leader of stalwart fighting men. Which is obviously your God given birthright?
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Pieman said:
Congrats.
Thank you for the advice. The officer in question told me that "no one" on the unit thinks I have "any" of the skills necessary to be an officer. She asked me for my perceived strengths, and then dismissed all of them as "irrelevant".
Even the officer who approved me as NCM told me I was a "marginal" candidate who had been "red flagged" for quick release.
I talked to friends and family, people who know my strengths and weaknesses up close. Their assessment was that, fairly or unfairly, the local military community just doesn't like me. Whoever I am, whatever I have done or not done, simply rubs the group the wrong way.
I think the best course of action may be to release from the unit.
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TT, if you want more appropriate advice from this forum, may I suggest you divulge more of the info you hint at in your posts? What strengths of yours did the officer suggest were irrelevant? What are the past actions that you refer to which are rubbing the local military community the wrong way? Can you sit back and try to see things from the other side of the recruiting table? These are the kind of actions that are part of good leadership: Openness, honesty, and an ability to see an issue from multiple angles are valuable traits.
You've had a lot of direct advice here already, most of it constructive, which is what you asked for. I'm certain if you engage directly in conversation, and stop skirting the important points, you'll get a lot out of the experience of the senior membership here.
You've had a lot of direct advice here already, most of it constructive, which is what you asked for. I'm certain if you engage directly in conversation, and stop skirting the important points, you'll get a lot out of the experience of the senior membership here.
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toyotatundra said:
Yep. Everyone else is wrong and your the only one that's right.
Oh, and your parents, that have been telling you all your life you can be whatever you want to be, they were wrong too. Some people are just made to flip burgers. Get over yourself and your misplaced superior attitude.
Here's a flash Sunshine. Just because everyone in the race gets a ribbon for participating doesn't mean anything. There's still only one winner and the rest of you are losers. That's life.
Obviously, the CF isn't for you. Deal with it and move on, they don't want you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spvTtHfdfQ8&feature=related
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Why would you even want to stau in an organization that works the way you describe? If you truly feel the way you come across as feeling its shocking that youd like to be a leader amongst all the stupid teenage officers.
Im concerned at your motives for sticking around. Nobody wants to follow the guy who craves authority. Not to mention craves all the crazy athority a junior officer if given.
Im concerned at your motives for sticking around. Nobody wants to follow the guy who craves authority. Not to mention craves all the crazy athority a junior officer if given.
Pieman
Army.ca Veteran
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Yea, someone is not saying good things about you. A whole year in and no leadership potential whatsoever? hmmm.....
I think it is something to consider. Does not sound like you are going to be able to move forward in that environment. I suspect that if you looked into taking the route I suggested, you might find the route you are looking for.
Those guys are easy to spot. They are usually about 5' tall.
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Pieman said:Those guys are easy to spot. They are usually about 5' tall.
Napoleon Complex?
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TT, some folks are just not made for the CF. You seem to fit into that category. Just accept it, take your degree and put it to use elsewhere. Sometimes things happen for a reason. Down the road, you may actually think, "Wow, I'm glad I got out, this is so much better" or something to that effect. Whatever you do, do it well.
I'm an infantry section commander. Seven and a half years in, two of them commanding a section. A tour overseas. I recently finished my degree. My troops this past year have between them a quarter century of university education- two are doing Master's degrees. Out of the six corporals I directly command right now, there's a college diploma, two degrees, and two more in progress. I'm qualified, I think, to speak to the value of a university degree in the primary reserve, although I won't claim that my experience is anything but modest compared to many here. But I've soldiered a bit, learned a lot, and made my share of errors. My learning by osmosis is not inconsiderable either.
The inherent value of the degree? Not a whole hell of a lot. A degree teaches you how to find and read sources, take information from them, and turn it into a readble product summarizing and expounding on a typically rather specific thesis as a subset of that field of knowledge. Obviously professional degrees differ.
I will be blunt, to start, because it's appropriate. You come across as petulant and arrogant. You seem to feel you are entitled to a superior standing because you slogged through school. Congratulations- I won't pretend to know what your marks are; I don't care. I do know that by far the hardest part of getting a degree is paying for it. The academics needed to get by are not exactly exhausting- you appear to be functionally literate and relatively well spoken, which is the single most fundamental requirement for good grades and academic success.
It took me most of those seven years - and a subtantial part of my time thus far commanding a section - to begin to grasp what leadership is, and I will state outright that anything I say on the matter is subject to the scrutiny and (if merited) scorn of others. I won't pretend to have it figured out in its entirety.
I look at it, however, as 'making your troops want to do, of their own accord, what you want them to do in accordance with the intent of your superiors'. I could rattle off the CF pam definition of course - it's not bad, but I like mine a bit better; afford me that minor conceit. Using either definition- when there is crap to be done (the essence of our job, afer all, is 'get crap done') will troops muckle on to you and get at it independent of any formal, legal command authority you may exert by virtue of rank or appointment? Leadership and rank are a loose Venn diagram at best. I've seen senior NCOs who couldn't lead a five man rush on a six man shitter, and corporals whom I'll happily follow if their careers should surpass mine.
I would wager you faced little real hardship in the process of getting to where you are now. I mean real hardship- not being hard done by. You don't evidence any of the humility I would associate with wisdom and with the years you profess to have lived. I'm not saying you aren't who you say you are, I believe every objective word you've said. I think, however, you err critically in your assignation of value to your own observations over those of others who have a vested interest in ensuring that the right people become officers in their regiment.
For make no mistake- NCO's talk, and have a lot of pull. Officers have their own world, which I'm not particularly privy to, but reputations travel within those circles too. And thsoe circles overlap increasingly as the respective ranks progress higher. A private who comes across as possessing a sense of superiority and entitlement will be noted as such. NCOs and officers are actively looking for future leaders- and they are more qualified to make that evaluation than you, at this early stage in your career, can possibly imagine. I flatter myself to think I'm starting to see the picture in fuzzy whole, though I'm a long ways off from seeing it clearly. But I know the men and women I've followed, and those who I would continue to do so willingly given the choice. Not one of the latter presented themselves as you have.
I believe that you are critically deficient in grasping the true value of the junior ranks you work with, and what makes them tick. You are not, in any way shape or form, inherently 'better' than them. An academic education is all well and good, but it really doesn't signify when you find yourself doing the job for real. You barely know the basics of soldiering at this point, never mind what is expected beyond the very basic soldier skills. To be blunt, you've yet to really do much of anything in the military, and you're not qualfied to judge the motivations of others, nor the professionalism upon which you seem to cast aspertions.
An officer who started in the ranks will ALWAYS be an officer who started in the ranks, with a perspective that could not otherwise be gained. This isn't to suggest that officer who started as such are of any less merit, just that experience in the JR's mess will always stick with you. I sugest you you nurture that perspective, work your way up to Corporal, and then earn yourself a spot on a PLQ in due time. If they will not offer you a PLQ, you have no business thinking yourself fit to be an officer anyway. I will respectfully reccomend to you that you examine your motives for wishing to be an officer. Do you wish to *command* soldiers using an authority granted by someone else, or do you wish to demonstrate that you are worthy to *lead* them? For leadership is, I would argue, the closest thing to democracy in the military. Soldiers will only *follow* of their own free will, whereas obediance if compulsory by law. When you learn to differentiate obedience from following, then you start to get an eye for who the leaders around you are. You can commission, and have the authority given to you- but I like the old line that something given is of little value. Learn a bit more about yourself, first, about others, second, and then perhaps work to shape yourself into someone in whom others entrust themselves voluntarily. When they begin to do that, then you know you're where you need to be.
You aren't there. You may never get there, because not everyone who wants to does. But if you do want to, learn from the experience of others, and from the advice being offered you. Take any of it individually with a grain of salt, but make sure you recognize clearly the picture we're painting for you collectively.
The inherent value of the degree? Not a whole hell of a lot. A degree teaches you how to find and read sources, take information from them, and turn it into a readble product summarizing and expounding on a typically rather specific thesis as a subset of that field of knowledge. Obviously professional degrees differ.
I will be blunt, to start, because it's appropriate. You come across as petulant and arrogant. You seem to feel you are entitled to a superior standing because you slogged through school. Congratulations- I won't pretend to know what your marks are; I don't care. I do know that by far the hardest part of getting a degree is paying for it. The academics needed to get by are not exactly exhausting- you appear to be functionally literate and relatively well spoken, which is the single most fundamental requirement for good grades and academic success.
It took me most of those seven years - and a subtantial part of my time thus far commanding a section - to begin to grasp what leadership is, and I will state outright that anything I say on the matter is subject to the scrutiny and (if merited) scorn of others. I won't pretend to have it figured out in its entirety.
I look at it, however, as 'making your troops want to do, of their own accord, what you want them to do in accordance with the intent of your superiors'. I could rattle off the CF pam definition of course - it's not bad, but I like mine a bit better; afford me that minor conceit. Using either definition- when there is crap to be done (the essence of our job, afer all, is 'get crap done') will troops muckle on to you and get at it independent of any formal, legal command authority you may exert by virtue of rank or appointment? Leadership and rank are a loose Venn diagram at best. I've seen senior NCOs who couldn't lead a five man rush on a six man shitter, and corporals whom I'll happily follow if their careers should surpass mine.
I would wager you faced little real hardship in the process of getting to where you are now. I mean real hardship- not being hard done by. You don't evidence any of the humility I would associate with wisdom and with the years you profess to have lived. I'm not saying you aren't who you say you are, I believe every objective word you've said. I think, however, you err critically in your assignation of value to your own observations over those of others who have a vested interest in ensuring that the right people become officers in their regiment.
For make no mistake- NCO's talk, and have a lot of pull. Officers have their own world, which I'm not particularly privy to, but reputations travel within those circles too. And thsoe circles overlap increasingly as the respective ranks progress higher. A private who comes across as possessing a sense of superiority and entitlement will be noted as such. NCOs and officers are actively looking for future leaders- and they are more qualified to make that evaluation than you, at this early stage in your career, can possibly imagine. I flatter myself to think I'm starting to see the picture in fuzzy whole, though I'm a long ways off from seeing it clearly. But I know the men and women I've followed, and those who I would continue to do so willingly given the choice. Not one of the latter presented themselves as you have.
I believe that you are critically deficient in grasping the true value of the junior ranks you work with, and what makes them tick. You are not, in any way shape or form, inherently 'better' than them. An academic education is all well and good, but it really doesn't signify when you find yourself doing the job for real. You barely know the basics of soldiering at this point, never mind what is expected beyond the very basic soldier skills. To be blunt, you've yet to really do much of anything in the military, and you're not qualfied to judge the motivations of others, nor the professionalism upon which you seem to cast aspertions.
An officer who started in the ranks will ALWAYS be an officer who started in the ranks, with a perspective that could not otherwise be gained. This isn't to suggest that officer who started as such are of any less merit, just that experience in the JR's mess will always stick with you. I sugest you you nurture that perspective, work your way up to Corporal, and then earn yourself a spot on a PLQ in due time. If they will not offer you a PLQ, you have no business thinking yourself fit to be an officer anyway. I will respectfully reccomend to you that you examine your motives for wishing to be an officer. Do you wish to *command* soldiers using an authority granted by someone else, or do you wish to demonstrate that you are worthy to *lead* them? For leadership is, I would argue, the closest thing to democracy in the military. Soldiers will only *follow* of their own free will, whereas obediance if compulsory by law. When you learn to differentiate obedience from following, then you start to get an eye for who the leaders around you are. You can commission, and have the authority given to you- but I like the old line that something given is of little value. Learn a bit more about yourself, first, about others, second, and then perhaps work to shape yourself into someone in whom others entrust themselves voluntarily. When they begin to do that, then you know you're where you need to be.
You aren't there. You may never get there, because not everyone who wants to does. But if you do want to, learn from the experience of others, and from the advice being offered you. Take any of it individually with a grain of salt, but make sure you recognize clearly the picture we're painting for you collectively.
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VIChris said:
More on my situation: When I was younger I did a lot of drugs. I don't have a record. But my career, my education were severely hampered.
I got off drugs. Time passed. For good or ill, I was completely open about my past with the recruiting centre. I was still declared unfit for service. On more than one application. I understand the reason for that.
Eventually the unfit for service label was reversed. However, the recruiting officer seemed hesitant to proceed. The officer in charge at the unit was (to put it mildly) even less gung-ho.
More recent accomplishments did not seem to matter. I had been boxed as X, Y and Z. And on several occasions I was told such. Worse, any subsequent decision I made, anything that went wrong in training, appeared to be fit back into the XYZ box.
There should be no "red flags". There should be no "we don't want you but have to take you".
Given my age, I think I may have been too anxious to get into combat arms before my best fighting years were up. I should have waited longer. I really do think I have some exceptional abilities in some areas. However I don't see an easy way out of this poisoned well.
A
aesop081
Guest
toyotatundra said:
This is reality in many places, just not the CF.
Why not ? Please explain.
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Container said:
Be careful not to put words in my mouth. Having been one myself, I think 19 year olds are inexperienced. However I have no doubt that many are able students and future leaders.
Again, I am concerned by the tendency here to pathologize honesty. I state that I am above average in some areas and below average in several others. The below average comments are completely ignored. And I am instead derided for being arrogant, a little man, even a Napoleon.
Sure i seek authority and status. So do a huge number of people in medicine, law, science and business. Again, this shouldn't be pathologized. I do not seek only status. Like most anyone I desire a range of qualities and experiences.
A
aesop081
Guest
toyotatundra said:
Desiring it does not mean you are suitable for it.
Pieman
Army.ca Veteran
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Sounds like you are walking into a situation where you have been given a chance. Whether the people there feel you deserve it or not, you got it.
I would say it is up to you to prove your salt to them and yourself if you want to take advantage of the opportunity that is in front of you. A year in is not nearly enough time to make that happen. Just a thought.
The little man comment I made was not directed at you, I was making reference to the fact that most people I encountered that 'power trip' tend to be short guys. (....how tall are you anyway? )
I would say it is up to you to prove your salt to them and yourself if you want to take advantage of the opportunity that is in front of you. A year in is not nearly enough time to make that happen. Just a thought.
The little man comment I made was not directed at you, I was making reference to the fact that most people I encountered that 'power trip' tend to be short guys. (....how tall are you anyway?
)
medicineman
Army.ca Legend
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If it's status and authority you seek, start and run your own business. If you want to lead soldiers, you have to prove yourself like everybody else...it's not something you can just show up and do like it's the 18th Century British Army where you bought your commission one day and the next you're commanding a rifle platoon on the battlefield. I've made a suggestion or two, others have as well - a good leader listens to people that have been around a bit and then makes decisions based on their innate knowledge and training and what the others have suggested. They may not use anything suggested, but they at least listen and weigh the pro's and con's. I don't get that from you - at least right now.
:2c:
MM
:2c:
MM
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It's late and I'm tired. But you guys have given me a lot to think about.
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While this is nowhere as insightful as everyone else's posts, I'll add my own tidbit, straight from Mumma. You should be grateful for what you have instead of complaining about what you don't have. Take a gander at the recruiting board. Look at all the people who would go to great lengths to be where you are at the moment and have the ability to honestly say you're in the Canadian Forces. In my opinion, the military will place you where they think you will be most effective to serve. If you would make a better Officer than an NCM, I'm sure they would make sure they fixed that for you.
