A Year In, And Frustrated

[toyotatundra]

First off, I know that there are some people who use internet forums to berate and ridicule others. Please spare me any moral lectures or personal attacks. I am going to lay out my situation without false humility. I am interested in constructive suggestions only.

My story. I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree. I applied for Reserve NCM and was accepted. I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.

I am an older candidate, in my late 20s. Rightly or wrongly, it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.

There are many 21 or 22 year olds being accepted for officer cadet positions. I can say objectively that I am smarter than most of them, and that I have valuable life experience that they lack. I am not being arrogant in this. I am not stronger or better looking or more popular with women than the average applicant. But I am more intelligent and wise.

Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills. However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants. College age kids are to a large degree a blank slate. Experienced NCMs have a track record. In a perfect world, this inequality would be balanced in the minds of promotion officials. However  this does not appear to be the case.

This concern over track records is a central issue because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective. Success on a firing range can be objectively measured. Running speed and push up ability can be quantified. But leadership cannot.

I am fine with being passed over for a position because I cannot meet a tangible standard, like eyesight or degree type. However, being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.

I want to excel in the Forces. However I do not want to be trapped as a perpetual NCM, under the command of college age students who I am smarter than. I realize that I made a mistake in accepting an NCM position when my real desire is officer.  However, there doesn't seem to be a clear way out of this bind.

If I continue as an NCM, I will face the extra obstacles which come with component transfer and special commissioning. If I release from the Forces, and reapply later for DEO, my military experience will still be there to be picked through.

The personnel selection system can be rather exasperating.

 

[cupper]

The fact that you expected to be accepted into a leadership position with only a year of experience in a reserve unit underscores the lack of leadership skills which they were referring to. Although assessing one's ability to lead troops in whatever task is presented may seem subjective from your perspective, the people who do the assessing have the experience and knowledge to accurately judge who does and who does not possess the qualities a leader must possess. And as for being lead all your career by young college graduates, at some point you need to realize that these junior officers are in the same position you are currently in, and are still learning about the trade, the CF in general, and all the other things one need to perform the tasks assigned.

There is a reason that NCM's go through a process to become junior leaders, then senior leaders and so on. It's because they put in the time and effort, learned what they need to to learn, and did the job. Leaders stood out because they had certain qualities that made others listen to them, work with them, and seek out their help, wisdom and knowledge. The powers that be noticed this and gave them the opportunities to prove themselves.

News flash.... It's the same process that officers go through as well.

Not meant to be harsh, but if you wanted to be an officer, you should have kept trying, looking for other positions in other units or other branches.

 

[kawa11]

As a civilian observer, is it not possible that they just don't think you have the leadership skills like they said?

Maybe your education, training and previous work experience are not factors they are weighing against you.

(Is there perhaps some instance where you were given more responsibility and ****ered it up? Maybe a self awareness issue you've overlooked?)

Have you asked the people who stated they, "don't think I have the necessary leadership skills" to possibly clarify or expand on that thought?

 

[Pusser]

What you are experiencing is indeed frustrating, but not at all uncommon.  If ask around or even search this forum, you will see that it is indeed easier to become an officer straight off the street than from within the CF.  Rightly or wrongly, this seems to be the reality.  Unfortunately, you've answered your own question without realizing it.  Yes, the younger ones are blank slate and the theory is that they can be moulded into effective leaders.  And yes, you do have a track record that will be scrutinized and possibly held against you.  In short, it's better to have nothing than to have something that they're not looking for.

You don't mention what your pre-military work history is, but if it's in a "blue-collar" field (for lack of a better term) than it is likely that would affect your application in that a trained mechanic, even if he is a shop foreman, would be seen as a "hands-on" type of person and thus steered toward the NCM stream.  At the same time a kid in university who was the captain of his high school hockey team will be lauded for his proven leadership skills and the fact that he is already in the "white-collar" realm.

Is this fair?  Does it work?  It's hard to say in all cases, but experience has shown this approach to be reasonably accurate.  There are of course exceptions to everything.

Is it subjective?  Absolutely!  However, keep in mind that the people making these subjective assessments have a great deal of experience and are qualified to make these kinds of decisions.  I've seen many people do well in objective assessments, but who can't lead a two man rush to a six-hole outhouse.  Building the trust of your peers, subordinates and superiors is unfortunately a very subjective game.

How do you fix this?  Keep in mind that you have only been in for a year and you haven't really had a chance to prove your leadership skills.  You are still better off than the guy who hasn't enrolled yet because you've already passed that first hurdle.  However, you did lose the officer lottery, so now you have to work a little harder.  The key now is to work hard and excel at what you do.  Be a team player (we're big on that).  Most importantly, you need to excel on your leadership training.  This will prove to your chain of command that you have leadership skills.  Keep also in mind that if you progress to sergeant, you will become eligible for commissioning from the ranks.

Most importantly of all, you need to watch the attitude.  Walking around thinking you're smarter than everyone else is not going to help you.  You don't even have to say it.  If you think it, people will notice it.  I've known many career corporals who thought they were the smartest guys in the room. 

 

[medicineman]

I'm going to take a stab at something here.  First off, IMHO as a Senior NCO, whether you like it or not, you're coming off as arrogant and even worse, like you've got some sense of entitlement.  Having a degree doesn't mean a lick at your ability to be an officer - it's just a requirement the government has decreed is a must have these days.  I'm willling to bet there is an undertone of attitude coming out in your interviews that might be affecting your chances at climbing into the Officer's Mess.  I know lots of NCO's with degrees incidentally, and when I was a Reservist, most of the people I was a Pte/Cpl with had degrees or were in University - the Reserves put money in our bank accounts to help pay our tuition.  Also, the ones that thought that because they had a degree and were smarter than others, were almost universally rejected for officer training.

Now here is something constructive - you say you're wiser and maybe even smarter than the officers that are being put in command over you...guess what, the vast majority of us 30 or 40 something year olds here that are Junior or Senior NCO's have or did have platoon/troop commanders that are half their age.  Their job is to use their older person's wisdom and life experience to mentor and mold their young Lt's - so put your age, life experience and smarts to use and mentor the young'ens, and not just the officers/OCdts, but also your NCM's and Junior NCO's.  You'll probably find that this will be noticed and reflect better on the perceptions people have of you.  Something else - one of the principles of leadership is to seek and accept responsibility - so volunteer for something that requires you to take charge of a situation and people and get it done.  Could be something like the Unit Christmas party or a family day or whatever - just show that you can organize things and get them done.  Again, perceptions will change.  And if you still are having problems getting a commission, well, we need smart people at the operator level.

Hope that helps.

MM

 

[Container]

Obviously, when you first applied they determined that you lacked the required leadership skills. But then now that you went ahead and joined you feel that applicants on the street have it easier than you do- it cant be both. Its either too easy to walk in off the street and join as an officer, and you still failed, or the system works at screening applicants to a degree.

Now you are in as an NCM with lots of opportunities to demonstrate leadership but bemoan it for being too subjective. I assure you that leadership is not. It may not be noticed all the time but its absence is blatantly obvious- you seem to suffer from the latter.

 

[kawa11]

it's better to have nothing than to have something that they're not looking for.

That brings back some memories. I couldn't apply for Cook originally.

They were only hiring people who hadn't been to college for culinary yet.
Apparently, my 2 diplomas and years of experience meant I was not qualified, yet some person off the street who had never set foot in a kitchen was  :

 

[vhaust]

True leadership reveals during bad times, i.e. real war and being on the losing side.
The rest are just religiously hypothetical. :2c:

 

[Michael OLeary]

True leadership reveals during bad times, i.e. real war and being on the losing side.
The rest are just religiously hypothetical. :2c:

Vague philosophical musings do not make credible contributions to debate or discussion. If you have nothing concrete to offer, refraining from responding is also an acceptable option.

 

[aesop081]

I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree.

Having a degree is only one aspect of selection.

I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.

This is an assessment that the chain of command is more than capable of making.

it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.

Interesting that you failed to mention what that "history" was.............

I am smarter than most of them,

Of course you are.

But I am more intelligent and wise.

I knew everything in my 20s too.

Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills.

Judging by the fact that you were rejected, you failed to impress.

because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective.

Anyone's definition of leadership will be subjective.

But leadership cannot.

Only correct thing you have posted thus far.

being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.

With only a year in, you lack the experience to realize that all personnel assessments are subjective and that it will come into play at all ranks throughout your career.

 

[vhaust]

Vague philosophical musings do not make credible contributions to debate or discussion. If you have nothing concrete to offer, refraining from responding is also an acceptable option.

My bad, I am just trying to take a neutral stance with this fellow poster because I saw stabbing posts against him.

 

[Pieman]

However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants.

I had my education and was older than most when I applied. I applied as a DEO and got accepted straight off the bat. However, I ended up joining as a NCM for about 5 years, applied for Officer after.  The application from within is entirely different, and you are weighed based
upon your leadership experience within the military. The questions are really geared towards NCM with some rank and experience. It is not normally expected one would make the jump to NCM to officer in such a short time. 

The leadership experience is nothing you can get within a years time, and also hard to get only within five years. I was not even a MCpl when I applied, so what was my experience leading a section? Zero. However, I had built some 'leadership' quals through getting an
instructors certificate, and teaching some courses. I could not have accomplished that within the short time of one year though. I got an offer for officer in the end, but it was really up in the air. Because of my short time in, and low rank I scored low straight off the bat.
(In the end, I decided to pull plug for bigger and better things)

You may want to look into the option of releasing but staying in the supplementary reserves. Then reapply as a DEO. The process might be significantly faster for you.

 

[Good2Golf]

...I am interested in constructive suggestions only...

Might I suggest that you consider the possibility that you may be far more subjective in your assessment of others' abilities than the very system for which you believe subjectivity to be a shortcoming?

Might I also suggest that you consider that those who are focused more on performing to their potential than concerning themselves with how they compare to others are often unburdened with worries of inequitable or fair treatment from a professional organization.


Regards
G2G

 

[the 48th regulator]

toyotatundra,

CDN Aviator nailed it it, as far as I am concerned.
dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

My bad, I am just trying to take a neutral stance with this fellow poster because I saw stabbing posts against him.

Despite the forum's ability to be hostile, there's been no "et tu Brute" knife play here. There has, however, been a pretty solid consensus that that perhaps the OP has an overly high opinion of himself (based, of course, simply on the information he has offered and the manner of presentation) and that perhaps the chain of command assessing him might have to be given benefit of the doubt in the absence of receiving the other side of the story.

 

[George Wallace]

First off, I know that there are some people who use internet forums to berate and ridicule others. Please spare me any moral lectures or personal attacks. I am going to lay out my situation without false humility. I am interested in constructive suggestions only.

My story. I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree. I applied for Reserve NCM and was accepted. I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.

I am an older candidate, in my late 20s. Rightly or wrongly, it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.

There are many 21 or 22 year olds being accepted for officer cadet positions. I can say objectively that I am smarter than most of them, and that I have valuable life experience that they lack. I am not being arrogant in this. I am not stronger or better looking or more popular with women than the average applicant. But I am more intelligent and wise.

Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills. However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants. College age kids are to a large degree a blank slate. Experienced NCMs have a track record. In a perfect world, this inequality would be balanced in the minds of promotion officials. However  this does not appear to be the case.

This concern over track records is a central issue because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective. Success on a firing range can be objectively measured. Running speed and push up ability can be quantified. But leadership cannot.

I am fine with being passed over for a position because I cannot meet a tangible standard, like eyesight or degree type. However, being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.

I want to excel in the Forces. However I do not want to be trapped as a perpetual NCM, under the command of college age students who I am smarter than. I realize that I made a mistake in accepting an NCM position when my real desire is officer.  However, there doesn't seem to be a clear way out of this bind.

If I continue as an NCM, I will face the extra obstacles which come with component transfer and special commissioning. If I release from the Forces, and reapply later for DEO, my military experience will still be there to be picked through.

The personnel selection system can be rather exasperating.

I have been watching you post for the past thirty minutes or so, which leaves me with a couple of conclusions.  One; you are trying to edit your post, or you are not quite as quick as you claim.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You call into question, the abilities of others, without so much as simple interaction. Yet, when the Review Board does the same with you, after having questioned and observed you, and consulted amongst themselves, found you wanting, it's obviously the systems fault.

Your sense of personal worth and self entitlement is totally astounding and worthy of the defective gentry that became officers and leaders of men, due to social standing, to everyone's detriment, during Colonial times.

The best thing you could do is spend, at minimum, 10 years as an NCM and see if you gain any humility, trade experience, leadership abilities and down right common sense.

Second thought, everyone has been too easy on you.

Please find another vocation, we have no need of your type in the CF. NCM or Officer. Regular or Reserve.

And please stay away from the Cadet Corps also.

 

[toyotatundra]

I have been watching you post for the past thirty minutes or so, which leaves me with a couple of conclusions.  One; you are trying to edit your post, or you are not quite as quick as you claim.

You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.

Too bad, it's what Moderators do.

Guess you have trouble being scrutinized wherever you're at.

 

[kawa11]

You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.

You still think that's the wind rustling in the leaves?