A war-time mobilization role for the CIC?`

[geo]

CIC officers who, Mondays thru Friday toil in offices, manage employees, manage budgets, inventory and customer satisfaction certainly have something to offer. it might not be "green" experience but.... let's paint it purple.

 

[Neill McKay]

CIC officers do a great job teaching cadets, but are officers in the CF only for administrative purposes (using armouries, signing out kit, being employed by DND during the summer at camps etc). Let's make sure not to confuse that. A 'pure' CIC officer (one who entered the CF as a CIC and will retire as a CIC) really cannot be useful to the CF except in very minor admin capacities. The level of training and experience is just not there, and leading a bunch of cadets around is not at all the same as leading a bunch of soldiers around in real life scenarios. Thats just the way it is. Except for those CIC officers with previous military experience, in an emergency the CIC would be called up only as a last resort and would probably be required to undergoe proper training before they would be employed.  

Sorry if I've asked you this before, but have you ever been a CIC officer?

 

[kincanucks]

The ability to look after 12-18 year old kids could come in handy some place.

 

[redleafjumper]

In my time as a CIL officer I led both regular and reserve members in different capacities. Mutual respect and getting the job done coupled with some good old-fashioned leadership seem to work no matter what one's trade might be.  CIC officers are commissioned members of the CF, they aren't just officers for "administrative purposes", and certainly some of that training is useful.  Having taught some 500 cadets and others to climb and rappel (among many other topics) over the years, both at summer training camps and in local field training exercises, I have a pretty good idea that what I was doing was not merely administrative in nature.  I also used to teach a lot of rimfire and centre-fire shooting, but that is a whole additional issue.  
Geo's comments about the background of CIC officers who work in a variety of trades and then wear a uniform having something to offer the CF is certainly true.  Michael O'Leary's comment at the first interest is quite perceptive and seems to me to be a reasonable idea, but there really needs to be some clarity as to what would happen in the event of trouble.  In many communities in Canada, the local CIC officers are the only military presence, and thus bear special responsibility as the local representatives of the CF.

(edited for grammar correction)

 

[PViddy]

but are officers in the CF only for administrative purposes 

Show me that in writing.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It is difficult to identify specific jobs that CIC officers could, en masse, occupy, and that is why so many comments have returned to the concept of individual capabilities being the deciding factor. By looking at historical examples, however, there are various roles that could be filled, ones that do not necessarily require background training in specific arms or services MOCs, partly because of the nature of the assumed responsibilities, partly because of distance from pointy end activities, and large part because they can fill roles that might otherwise suck up large numbers of officers from the arms and services.

For example: How many of the detractors in this thread will willingly give up their hard Corps job for these appointments? (any or all of which could theoretically be needed depending on scope and nature of a war-time mobilization):

Town Majors (i.e., liaison with municipal authorities in support of troops passing through or billeted in location)

Billeting Officers ("8 men in this house ....")

Bomb/gas/nuke shelter coordinators (" I'm sorry ma'am, you can't take the stroller down there.")

Administrators of recruiting sites ("Corporal, please roust the cleaners to empty the garbage in the waiting area again.")

Entraining officers at transportation hubs ("Yes sir, your train will be here at 1930 hours, prepared to board 560 troops.")

Point liaison with transportation facilities; municipal agencies; commandeered equipment owner/operators ("We've got 800 troops arriving at the airport in 6 hours, you told me we had enough buses available ....")

Junior duty officers in static domestic HQs and camps ( ...... "0330 hrs; MP Sect reports that locals were throwing bottles at gate house again" .....)

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Let's sum this discussion up right now with the official "party line"...  It is pretty clear (excuse the all caps from the cut and paste).  My emphasis added.

CANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05
CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CANADIAN CADET MOVEMENT
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04

THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM

THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF

THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY.

REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES

HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM

Long and short:  CIC officers are officers who's sole duty is the care of cadets.

 

[Big Foot]

Hmmm, I think thats clear enough. Unless there was a crisis period directive to supercede this, thats how it stands.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Hmmm, I think thats clear enough. Unless there was a crisis period directive to supercede this, thats how it stands.

Which, I believe, was the basis of the initial hypothetical question.

I think the current policy issue was beaten to death in a few old threads; see this one for 29 pages on that particular subject - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28667.0.html

 

[Michael OLeary]

Hence why the above mentioned detractors mentioned that CIC officers could occupy such minor (although important) admin roles as those detailed above.

Although you had previously posted:

Wasn't there a big thread on this a while back? Because we are going down the same road as before. Which was:

1. CIC officers are not on par with the rest of the CF Officer Corps, they do not do IAP/BOTP nor any real military training and therefore are not the same as the rest of the officer branch. Basically, officers in name only.

2. There cannot be nor will there be any role for CIC officers unless they have previous military service. It would be like placing brand new recruits/officer candidates into a operational scenario (no offence meant, but the level of training is the same)

I cannot see how the above can be disputed and why it has to be rehashed every 6 months or so. 

Why so harsh?, and yet then concede that there may be jobs they could fill? 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Yes, detailed answers within the scope of the original question do help sustain reasoned debate.

 

[geo]

Aha....
Knew I had read that "Official party line" recently
of course, that works as long as things are going the right way
when everything goes south in the proverbial handbasket.... subject to change with little or no advance warning.

 

[Neill McKay]

Nope. Never have, never will. And your point would be...

My point would be, then, that you're probably not in a very good position to comment on the capabilities, organization, training, or much else to do with the CIC.  Just a matter of keeping within one's own area of expertise, something that's usually encouraged here.

Sorry to hear that you're not willing to consider a transfer down the road, though.   Some of the best CIC officers I know started their careers in other MOCs, and those officers invariably bring a lot of very useful experience to the job.

I got one better, show me a distinct need (other then what I said) for CIC officers to be commissioned officers (already been beaten to death in other threads so maybe its better to not go there).

Maybe, but the door is open so I'll simply say that it would be for similar reasons that countless other staff-type jobs are held by commissioned officers.  At any rate, it's the status quo and shows no signs of changing however many disgruntled CF members complain about it.

 

[PViddy]

I got one better, show me a distinct need (other then what I said) for CIC officers to be commissioned officers (already been beaten to death in other threads so maybe its better to not go there).
 

Good call.   Don't like it ?  Run for Federal Office and make some changes.

cheers

PV

edit: typo

 

[MJP]

Although as a side note to consider, on my reserve BMQ we had a CIC officer from my old cadet corp come in to teach us some first aid (I never learned why). So you never know...

Hijack,

First Aid instructor is a civilian course, that the military uses.  Anyone qualified can teach FA to military pers.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Anyways, I think the original question was answered and I have forgotten my original point (did I have one?). So lets call this a wrap shall we? We got the offical position a few posts ago and that seems to have cleared up the issue.

Actually, despite your seeming desire to have the "last word", the original poster's question (the issue) has nothing to do with the current existing pollicy.

As noted by geo:

Aha....
Knew I had read that "Official party line" recently
of course, that works as long as things are going the right way
when everything goes south in the proverbial handbasket.... subject to change with little or no advance warning.

We were trying to discuss the hypothetical worst case scenario; in which case many existing policies may be found to be inadequate to meet evolving service needs.

I believe it's often referred to as "thinking outside the box."

 

[Sig_Des]

Just to throw another bone into the fray, How would any NCM's here feel about having a CIC officer in charge of their troop/platoon/ company, etc?

 

[aesop081]

Just to throw another bone into the fray, How would any NCM's here feel about having a CIC officer in charge of their troop/platoon/ company, etc?

I'm sure that it would go over well..........

 

[Sig_Des]

I'm sure that it would go over well..........

I can just imagine

 

[Bean]

Well let me again draw from personal experience.  In my past I have worked on a multi-departmental project led by DND and when th senior officer learned I held a commission (albeit a CIC commission) he had no problem putting me into the field for training and eval purposes.  During this time I led a Sigs section (I was at the time an LT) and no one but the officer I worked for knew I was CIC until we got back into garrison andthey actually saw me in my beret (was in helemet or WBCH the rest of the time).  The CIC are capable of much more than the average musician give us credit for, and don't think we are unskilled.  Leadership is the same regardless of who you normally lead, as is management, Once the section I had been working with in the field for 15 days learned I was CIC, they still had no problems listening to what I directed to be done because the realized I wasn't speaking out of my a$$.  Lets agree that CIC officers have a training gap (being tactical or operational in nature) but bring to the table equivelent or similar experience based on the individual.  You cannot paint the whole organization with one brush, just like any other branch of the CF, I think I'm repeating myself (from several other threads saying this).  We ahve a role, we can expand that role in time of crisis and like it or not, most of the seasoned CIC officers are capable of hanl\dling that challenge (perhaps an 18/19 year old O/Cdt is less prepared, but those who have been around a while will perform admirably provided the troops they are asigned to manage give them the shot).  Please keep the minds open.