A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively

[ballz]

I started this topic seperate from the "thoughts and prayers" one because, quite frankly, this is thread is not about thoughts and prayers and it would be inappropriate to post this specific article in that thread. I figured I'd "wait until the funeral was over before I trample on a man's grave."

I will post this article and throw in my own 2 cents. Shared with the usual caveats.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Layton+doesn+warrant+state+funeral/5303388/story.html

Layton doesn't warrant a state funeral
TwitterEmailBarbara Kay, National Post · Aug. 25, 2011 | Last Updated: Aug. 25, 2011 3:05 AM ET

It seems the rules are changing on who gets a state funeral in Canada. Jack Layton never led a government, never sat in cabinet and never served as governor-general. According to protocol and tradition, he should not be getting one. Why is he?

Because people liked him a lot, and because he was consumed by a cause in which triumph was contingent on overcoming tremendous odds, if at all, and because he faced up to a terrible illness with courage and dignity.

And because we live in a culture in which traditional mourning rituals dominated by religion have been discarded, but with nothing equally dignified to replace them, we have turned to sentimentality and kitsch to express our sense of loss.

Call it teddy bear grief. Who can forget the hysteria around Princess Diana's death, when a whole nation went slightly berserk with an outpouring of grief that was totally inappropriate and disproportionate. Anger at the paparazzi held responsible for the car crash was soon displaced by anger at the Royal family for their seeming coolness. Hysteria grew over the fact that the flag at Buckingham Palace wasn't at half mast even though no Royal death would have warranted it according to protocol and tradition.

The only adult in the room at that time was the Queen, on holiday in Balmoral, who at first was unaware of the national mood, and when apprised of it, was instinctively repulsed by it. Tony Blair recalled that the Queen "rightly" viewed the public mood as "irrational." But her advisors told her she had to make her sorrow public, and like the good soldier she is, she did, and the anger subsided.

Many politicians took a lesson from that episode. Stephen Harper was apparently one of them. He pre-empted condemnation of his aloofness detachment from human emotion by ordering a state funeral in order to satisfy the teddy-bear grief needs of a nation that has abandoned traditional channels for the expression of communal sorrow.

Protocol was invented for a good reason. Protocol allows people to perform on automatic pilot when stress clouds their ability to think clearly. It's lovely to see the outpouring of affection for Jack, but a state funeral was the wrong decision. It is precisely when emotions run high that cooler heads should prevail. Stephen Harper has made a specialty of being the cooler head in many critical situations abroad. He goofed this time.

First let me say that the author of this article seems a little too bitter that people are moving away from religious funerals for my liking. She seems to be hinting that a religious funeral is a "dignified" way to go that all people should want, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with her main point in this article. :

I have to admit, I have found the "fuss" over Jack's death a bit much. I was taken back as much as anyone when I saw the pictures of a tanned skeleton announcing his "leave of absence," which I personally took as an announcement of "I just got mvoed to the front of the line." And I was taken back by how quickly the cancer killed him. However, I feel there are a lot of heartstrings being played on, and a lot of it is politically motivated which is making me sick, and I think some of it is even orchestrated by Jack himself.

So what do you believe in 10 years Jack Layton be remembered for? 20 years? I personally wonder if the NDP's election results will prove to change the country's political playing field for a long time, or if we will be back to the "normal" political playing field after the next election. Sadly, I am leaning towards Jack's death being the downfall of everything he had achieved, which is admittedly a lot, and it would be nice to see the BQ remain silent, but it won't even be remembered in 10 years time if it gets reversed without actually bringing any real changes.

 

[Edward Campbell]

See here.

Re: the state funeral - I think PM Harper's political instincts were spot on. Like it or not there has been a HUGE outpouring of public 'grief,' some (much?) of the flames fanned by a fawning media. The PM's offer of a state funeral and his participation in it silences almost all his critics.

But it is a Princess Di moment and a week from now we wil turn again to other matters.

No one, not even Layton, can hope to repeat his QC breakthrough unless it is by winning the government, and that's not in the cards in 2015. The main effect of Layton's passing will be to highlight the paucity of front bench talent in the NDP. I suspect we are going to see some fierce infighting between the right (Mulcair, Stoffer, etc) and left (Davies et al) wings of the NDP and I don't have any idea about who might win.

The big winners are the Liberals - disarray on their left wing means that can focus on the centre, into which Harper has moved.

 

[GAP]

I don't think anything is going to overcome Brad Wall, especially the Sask NDP....but in Manitoba it may be the life preserver the NDP need, and they will grasp it with all 4 hands.....(that's counting the  2 that were in our pockets and the one in big unions pocket

Prairie provinces head into elections weighing impact of Layton's death
JENNIFER GRAHAM REGINA— The Canadian Press Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2011 7:30PM EDT
Article Link

With the outpouring of emotion for Jack Layton, political observers on the Prairies wonder if the federal NDP leader's untimely death will serve to galvanize the party's support in two provinces heading to the polls this fall.

Manitoba NDP Premier Greg Selinger faces his closest challenger, Progressive Conservative Leader Hugh McFadyen, on Oct. 4. Saskatchewan Opposition NDP Leader Dwain Lingenfelter is challenging Saskatchewan Party Premier Brad Wall on Nov. 7.

“I don't think that anyone wants to think of what sort of politics might emerge in the short-term out of the sadness that we're all feeling,” said veteran Manitoba New Democrat Bill Blaikie, who was first elected to the House of Commons in 1979 and left in 2008 to run provincially. He won a seat and was named to cabinet, but is not running in the October election.

“Everybody ... who is involved in the campaign will be inspired to campaign just a little harder ... having Jack for an example as someone who in spite of obvious personal medical difficulties soldiered on,” Mr. Blaikie said. “As I heard someone say ... ‘you know the next time I think about whether I just want to canvass one more block or do one more pamphlet drop or whatever the case may be, I just think of Jack Layton and how he persevered.”’
More on link

 

[ballz]

Re: the state funeral - I think PM Harper's political instincts were spot on. Like it or not there has been a HUGE outpouring of public 'grief,' some (much?) of the flames fanned by a fawning media. The PM's offer of a state funeral and his participation in it silences almost all his critics.

I agree with you, but it makes my teeth grind that a state funeral was awarded as a politically-motivated decision, much less one that involves tugging on heartstrings. Both sides of this s**t should be ashamed, but then again it seems that Jack wanted his death to be a tool that the NDP could use :facepalm:

 

[Northalbertan]

I'll give it up to Mr. Layton for being a strong leader for his party, but the polices he and his party put forward made him no friend to Western Canada.  Or for that matter any part of Canada.  He had a tendency to jump in bed with anyone or organization which brought him closer to power (the whole coalition of the NDP, Lieberals, and the Bloc).  I had to wonder what price he willing to have Canada pay to put him into the PM's office.

Nobody want's anyone to go the way he did but frankly I am glad he is not involved in our political spectrum any longer.  I would much rather have had him leave politics in another manner (political scandal would have worked for me) but the media had such a love affair with the man that even visiting a massage parlour where questionable services were provided could not bring him down.  Where was the investigative journalism then? 

I guess for me it comes down to integrity.  I don't think Jack had enough.

 

[DBA]

The funeral does seem a bit overdone to me as well. One good thing is I looked up the list of Past State Funerals and researched a few of the names which made for some interesting reading.

Not sure he will have much of a legacy as I don't see the NDP gaining enough outside of Quebec to be in contention for forming the government.

 

[frank1515]

I'm in the opinion that Leaders of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (HMLO) should get State Funerals. Most people underestimate the imporantace of HMLO, but it is in fact one of the most important aspect of our Parliamentary system. To quote the Rt. Hon. John Diefenbaker:


"If Parliament is to be preserved as a living institution His Majesty's Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions. When it properly discharges them the preservation of our freedom is assured. The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when criticism ends. It upholds and maintains the rights of minorities against majorities. It must be vigilant against oppression and unjust invasions by the Cabinet of the rights of the people. It should supervise all expenditures and prevent over-expenditure by exposing to the light of public opinion wasteful expenditures or worse. It finds fault; it suggests amendments; it asks questions and elicits information; it arouses, educates and molds public opinion by voice and vote. It must scrutinize every action by the government and in doing so prevents the short-cuts through democratic procedure that governments like to make."


Source: Hon. John G. Diefenbaker, "The Role of the Opposition in Parliament," Address to the Empire Club of Canada, Toronto, 27 October 1949.

John Diefenbaker explains this extremely well, and if we are to honour Prime Ministers and serving Cabinet members with State Funerals, then we should also honour serving Leaders of the Loyal Opposition.

My  :2c:

EDIT: Fixed the quotation marks.

 

[ballz]

I don't think many people here will argue that HMLO is an important part of parliament, but I for one don't agree that serving as the Leader of the Opposition should get you a state funeral.

With that, Jack Layton never even actually served as Leader of the Opposition. He was the leader of the party that won the right to be HMLO, but he never served in parliament as Leader of the Opposition.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?

 

[frank1515]

I don't think many people here will argue that HMLO is an important part of parliament, but I for one don't agree that serving as the Leader of the Opposition should get you a state funeral.

With that, Jack Layton never even actually served as Leader of the Opposition. He was the leader of the party that won the right to be HMLO, but he never served in parliament as Leader of the Opposition.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?

I think you are right, Ballz. He was Leader of HMLO when the Government voted on the back-to-work legislation for Canada Post (If my memory serves me well).

 

[Pusser]

Nobody want's anyone to go the way he did but frankly I am glad he is not involved in our political spectrum any longer.  I would much rather have had him leave politics in another manner (political scandal would have worked for me) but the media had such a love affair with the man that even visiting a massage parlour where questionable services were provided could not bring him down.  Where was the investigative journalism then? 

I guess for me it comes down to integrity.  I don't think Jack had enough.

I don't think a political scandal would ever have happened with Jack Layton and I strongly disagree with your assertion that he didn't have enough integrity.  Jack Layton was teeming with integrity.  The man was honest and always stood up for what he believed in.  I have no time for most of his policies and it will likely be a cold day in Hell before I ever vote for the federal NDP (I did vote NDP in BC, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish), but it is unfair to doubt his honesty, integrity or commitment.  As a person he set an example that all can admire, regardless of how misguided and crazy some of the planks in his platform were.

If there's a real problem in the NDP, it's the likes of Nicole Turmel, who has already shown herself to be lacking in integrity.

I also think that Layton will be talked about for many years to come.  We still hear of Ed Broadbent from time to time, but when was the last time anyone mentioned Audrey McLaughlin or Alexa McDonough?

On the subject of a state funeral I am of two minds.  On the one hand I can see it as being appropriate, but I have concerns about the precedent it sets.  The only other Leader of the Opposition to ever die in office was Laurier, but he had also been Prime Minister, so he was entitled anyway.  The truly scary question would have been what would have happened had Gilles Duceppe died in office (other than  dancing in the streets throughout most of Canada  ;D).  If Jack Layton's state funeral sets a precedent, will we have to give the same honour to a future separatist who happens to become the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (pray that never happens again).

 

[frank1515]

If Jack Layton's state funeral sets a precedent, will we have to give the same honour to a future separatist who happens to become the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (pray that never happens again).

The decision to give a State Funeral to any Canadian is the prerogative and a power vested in the Prime Minister. PM Harper offered Ms. Chow a State Funeral for Mr. Layton for his contribution of Canadian Politics and as the Leader of HMLO (arguably). It is my opinion that Mr. Duceppe did not significantly contribute positively to Canadian Politics, but in fact had a negative impact. I would not call Mr. Duceppe's sting as Leader of HMLO "loyal" by any stretch, I would call it disloyal as he, in fact, being member of a separatist party, would like to see Her Majesty disappear as our Head of State. So I would argue that if Mr. Duceppe would have passed away while being the Leader of HMLO, a State Funeral would not be warranted.

 

[lethalLemon]

The decision to give a State Funeral to any Canadian is the prerogative and a power vested in the Prime Minister. PM Harper offered Ms. Chow a State Funeral for Mr. Layton for his contribution of Canadian Politics and as the Leader of HMLO (arguably). It is my opinion that Mr. Duceppe did not significantly contribute positively to Canadian Politics, but in fact had a negative impact. I would not call Mr. Duceppe's sting as Leader of HMLO "loyal" by any stretch, I would call it disloyal as he, in fact, being member of a separatist party, would like to see Her Majesty disappear as our Head of State. So I would argue that if Mr. Duceppe would have passed away while being the Leader of HMLO, a State Funeral would not be warranted.

Well, you bring removal of the Monarchy from Canadian society into the mix, and you'd be surprised at how much of the general public would agree with it. Quebecois or not.

But that's a whole other can of worms.

 

[frank1515]

A whole other can of worms, indeed! I guess I underestimated the loyalty Canadian society actually has for the Crown.

In any case, back to Mr. Layton's legacy.

 

[Greymatters]

The death of any person is sad; death by cancer is worse, and death from prostate cancer is one of the worst - it can take away all your dignity as a man.  I know from experience, with two family members having travelled this path, and I'm at risk for being there in the future.

I didnt like Layton, didnt like his politics and didnt like some of his political actions or leadership style.  I even met him in person once, and didnt like him then either. 

But I will give him kudos, it took a set of big ones to lead his party through the past year and the recent elections while suffering from this disease.  He likely could have lived longer if he had taken better care of himself over the past year, and instead he focused himself on his party's success.  I think he had a high level of personal integrity and perseverance, and I respect his willingness to sacrifice himself for something he believed in.

 

[vonGarvin]

EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?

Parliament has sat, and Mr. Layton was, according to Hansard, present on 2 June 2011 among other days.

For example, on Monday, 06 June, Mr Layton said the following during question period:

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by congratulating the Prime Minister, the government and all members who were elected. I would also like to take this opportunity to remind the Conservatives that 60% of Canadian voters did not vote for them. After the recent campaign, the Prime Minister said he felt an obligation to work with all members of the House. I agree with him on that, but the Conservatives' tone did not change at all in the throne speech.


    Where is the government's desire to work with others?

And Hansard shows that he was last in parliament on 23 June 2011.

 

[exgunnertdo]

I don't know where else to post this, but this is just wrong.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=239960959372957

A Facebook event, rallying people to mark Jack Layton's journey down the 401, by gathering on the overpasses dressed in orange, waving Canadian flags.

It is not an NDP sanctioned event, btw.

But a bit of Googling, and I'm discovering media referring to his journey "down the stretch of the 401 known as the Highway of Heroes."  Can they not just call it the 401???

I feel that this funeral has gotten way out of control.

 

[The Bread Guy]

But a bit of Googling, and I'm discovering media referring to his journey "down the stretch of the 401 known as the Highway of Heroes."  Can they not just call it the 401???

That's what you get when an idea/name catches on, for better or worse.

 

[Brutus]

John Diefenbaker explains this extremely well, and if we are to honour Prime Ministers and serving Cabinet members with State Funerals, then we should also honour serving Leaders of the Loyal Opposition.

My  :2c:

EDIT: Fixed the quotation marks.

Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister). It is a State Funeral, not a political funeral. The decision to offer a State Funeral to Mr. Layton has to be seen as quite seperate from one that may be offered to a sitting Cabinet Minister.

I personally don't have too much issue with it - he was one of the most popular political leaders in some time at the peak of his political success. I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.

Also, it was mentioned that the authority to offer a State Funeral resides with the PM. It technically resides with the Governor General, on the advice of the Privy Council.

 

[Rheostatic]

Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister). It is a State Funeral, not a political funeral. The decision to offer a State Funeral to Mr. Layton has to be seen as quite seperate from one that may be offered to a sitting Cabinet Minister.

I personally don't have too much issue with it - he was one of the most popular political leaders in some time at the peak of his political success. I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.

Also, it was mentioned that the authority to offer a State Funeral resides with the PM. It technically resides with the Governor General, on the advice of the Privy Council.

Jack Layton was a member of the Privy Council.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister).

Let's not forget Jack was also a member of the Privy Council according to the Parliament web page ....

The Flag on the Peace Tower in Ottawa will be flown at half-mast from Monday, August 22, 2011, until sunset on Saturday, August 27, 2011, the day of the funeral of the Honourable Jack Layton, Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, Member of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and Leader of the New Democratic Party of Canada.

.... and had been so since since March 21, 2005 according to the PCO site.

I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.

Agree with this - imagine the s**t storm if this wasn't offered.