A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively

[Hammer Sandwich]

.....
This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.

He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

He called us "war criminals" with regards to the implications on mistreatment of Taliban detainees by the Afghan authorities. He couldn't look us in the eyes when these accusations were proven false and even offer an apology.......

I honestly didn't know any of that.

I appreciate that clarification, GW.

This has definitely given me a different perspective.

HS

 

[Redeye]

That fairly much sums it up for me as well.  I took a dislike for the pair of Laytons when they were Toronto City Councilors and lived in Subsidized Housing.  That was a very immoral act in my eyes and a precursor to his and her future aspirations in Federal politics.

They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike militaries, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Hell, there are NDP folks like Peter Stoffer who tend to get support in military communities too, after all. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I didn't like most of Layton's policies/positions, either.  However.....

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

.... I don't know if a statement was issued for each of the fallen, but it wasn't zero on that score, either.

 

[Edward Campbell]

They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike military, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.

You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.

I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.

The detainee issue was fabricated - I stand by that word - by the NDP. Layton was the NDP's leader and, reportedly a good one; he was, therefore, in my opinion responsible for the detainee handling=war crimes lie.

Layton was, at heart, a conservative - he wanted to turn back the clock to a T.C. Douglas/Pierre Trudea era that, really, never existed except in the fevered imaginations of Dippers. And you're right they are the sort of people who think war is the ugliest thing but, of course, in that, as in everything else, the Dippers are wrong, again, because, as John Stuart Mill said, "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

That was Layton and is the NDP: a miserable creature, a 'kept man,' with no chance of being free.

 

[Redeye]

I knew you'd pick up on my allusion to Mill, Mr. Campbell.

You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.

I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.

The detainee issue was fabricated - I stand by that word - by the NDP. Layton was the NDP's leader and, reportedly a good one; he was, therefore, in my opinion responsible for the detainee handling=war crimes lie.

Layton was, at heart, a conservative - he wanted to turn back the clock to a T.C. Douglas/Pierre Trudea era that, really, never existed except in the fevered imaginations of Dippers. And you're right they are the sort of people who think war is the ugliest thing but, of course, in that, as in everything else, the Dippers are wrong, again, because, as John Stuart Mill said, "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

That was Layton and is the NDP: a miserable creature, a 'kept man,' with no chance of being free.

 

[mariomike]

They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

The results of the investigation are attached.

 

[Danjanou]

In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :

I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers.

The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)

 

[ModlrMike]

In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :

I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers.

The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)

Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.

 

[The Bread Guy]

In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :

If you believe mariomike's G&M article, it sounds like they paid more around $1100 a month - a bit closer? (I have no clue re:  TO pricing in those days)

That said....

Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.

It's all about the optics (who isn't getting rent-controlled space when they're paying allegedly full market in a co-op?), and if ANYBODY should have known that, it would have been someone like JL.

 

[Journeyman]

There are always problems between hagiography and reality; you guys need to cut Saint Jack some slack during this canonization process.



I saw him walking on water once.  :nod: 


Sure, we was wearing skates at the time; so what of it? Unbelievers

 

[Rifleman62]

Agree with recceguy, as what he wrote fairly sums it up for me as well.

 

[Danjanou]

If you believe mariomike's G&M article, it sounds like they paid more around $1100 a month - a bit closer? (I have no clue re:  TO pricing in those days)

That said....It's all about the optics (who isn't getting rent-controlled space when they're paying allegedly full market in a co-op?), and if ANYBODY should have known that, it would have been someone like JL.

The "voluntary" surcharge appears to have been offered only after all this came to light, perhaps as a public pennance and it was shortly after they moved out and bought the nice house. Rental prices in TO were really bad then, they're still outrageous mind bu thr condo boom did create some more rental stock downtown and that slowed the rising rents somewhat by end of decade. $1200-1400 IIRC would have been about right for a 3 bdrm. We ended up paying a grand fof a 2 Bdrm in 2002. Mind a bare closet sized room complete with roaches, bedbugs and shared bath and "kitchen" in a downtown rooming house averages $400-450 these days old buddy.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The "voluntary" surcharge appears to have been offered only after all this came to light, perhaps as a public pennance and it was shortly after they moved out and bought the nice house.

Seen - thanks.

 

[Kirkhill]

....His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'

Nae Doot at a', Argyle.

 

[vonGarvin]

I think that some of the outpouring is grief, genuine grief.  Not so much for the tragic suffering and end to a public figure, but because now, without Mr. Layton, the NDP are without a rudder.  And let's be frank: love or hate his policies, he came across as a likable guy.  And now the "Great Orange Hope" is gone, because he had everything going for him for "the oppressed masses".


But, in the end, one pant leg on a time is how he got dressed.  He made deals, he opposed "things" simply to gain points, but I think part of it isn't just that the guy died in a terrible manner, but the NDP supporters out there have lost their best hope at forming a government in Canada.

 

[Rifleman62]

As long as his "letter" which he "penned " does not come back to martyr the NDP to the stupid and uninformed.

While he was lying in state, commentators were relating the long line ups for PET. I wonder how many in that line have now grown up and matured?

 

[Infanteer]

But, in the end, one pant leg on a time is how he got dressed.  He made deals, he opposed "things" simply to gain points

But he didn't make gold records.

 

[The Bread Guy]

His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'

On that note, this from The Canadian Press:

Jack Layton's state funeral will be as much a political event as a religious ceremony.

But while the overt politicization of the NDP leader's death has raised eyebrows in some quarters, his former top aide makes no apologies.

Anne McGrath says that's exactly what Layton wanted as he struggled during his final days to ensure something positive would come of his untimely death.

From the moment he received the bad news from cancer tests in mid-July, McGrath says, Layton began scripting in intricate detail how his death and funeral should play out, planning how he could cushion the blow to his beloved party and motivate New Democrats to carry on his work.

"I think he was continuing to hope that this would not be the case, obviously," McGrath says.

"But he was very clear that if this was going to happen that there had to be something good out of it. I think a lot of people, when you're facing moments like this with death, people look for meaning and he knew that." ....

 

[a_majoor]

David Frum on Jack Layton's legacy:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/just+said/5315859/story.html

He did it just as he said

David Frum, National Post · Aug. 27, 2011 | Last Updated: Aug. 27, 2011 5:23 AM ET

I first met Jack Layton in the mid-1990s - I don't have a record of the date, but I'd guess about 1994 - at a pub in downtown Toronto.

Layton was already an important figure in city politics, but his eyes were fixed on a bigger prize. His handlers invited me to come meet the man who they explained would become the first NDP prime minister of Canada.

Why me? I suppose for the reason stated in the punchline of the joke about the aged Jewish man going to Catholic confessional to describe his torrid affair with a younger woman: "I'm telling everyone!"

In the mid-1990s, Layton was unveiling a new kind of left-wing politics: environmentalist, feminist, urban, professional and sympathetic to Quebec nationalism.

At the time, this was a radical concept. Many would say reckless.

The party that Layton wanted to lead was a party funded, supported and elected by industrial, mining and forestry unions. And that power was yielding strong results.

Under Ed Broadbent, who represented the auto town of Oshawa, Ont., the NDP had soared in the 1980s. They polled second after the Conservatives in Western Canada. They had elected premiers in B.C. and Ontario. The old ways seemed to be delivering results.

I pressed Layton on this point during our talk. Did he understand what he was putting at risk with his new strategy? How could he possibly reconcile his opening to Quebec with his party's commitment to a commanding government role in the economy?

I remember two things from our interview most vividly: the weakness of Layton's answers - and the strength of his confidence. Like most politicians, Layton was an activist, not an analyst; a feeler, not a thinker. He felt certain his concept would work. And of course - it did.

The 1990s proved as disastrous a period for the NDP as the 1980s had been prosperous.

The federal party was battered; the union-backed provincial parties were swept from office in B.C. and Ontario. New labour-saving technology and global competition shrank the membership of industrial and natural-resource unions. The base of the NDP shifted to the public sector, and to a workforce that was better educated, more female, more francophone - just as Layton had intuited at the beginning of the decade.

Layton built his party to prepare for a different future. Quebec might seem hopeless NDP territory to everyone else. Layton believed he could break through. The environment might seem a weird issue to emphasize through a global economic catastrophe. Layton believed the environment remained the issue of the future.

Though increasingly ill, Layton had the will and force and guts to put his body through the stress and exhaustion of national elections - and to survive to see his hopes vindicated and his plans succeed.

Layton never did become prime minister. Even granted better health, he likely never would have. Canadian politics don't lean that far left. And now he has bequeathed his successors a legacy at once hugely successful and desperately challenging: Can they hold what he gained?

Layton gained success precisely by discarding old ways. Lesser successors may draw a very different lesson: not to try new ways of their own, to adapt to new times ahead, but forever to follow Jack's ways, even as those ways in their turn become obsolete.

That great political pessimist Enoch Powell observed: "All political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream at a happy juncture, end in failure, because that is the nature of politics and of human affairs."

Only somebody as willfully provocative as Powell would have used the word "happy" to make this point. There is nothing "happy" about early death, and even the most political of men have hopes and aspirations and loves beyond politics.

Yet the truth of Powell's words is this: Layton was that rare politician who lived a life that ended in political triumph. I hoist to him the memory of that long-ago beer to say, "Here's to you Jack - you did it just the way you said you would." How many on this Earth can say the same?

© David Frum dfrum@frumforum.com

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Looks like the gloves are starting to come off:

From Ezra Levant: Political weaponry: Layton's death has created a paparazzi-friendly partisan rally

From W.E. (Bill) Belliveau: The Canonization of Jack Layton