2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Brad Sallows]

Old-style PC isn't going very far if it just picks up where it left off while it was in Mulroney's hands. There will have to compromises based on trades of equal value.

 

[LiveFightMove]

But that is where the hypocrisy of some on the pro life side. Expect others do deal with their own problems but if abortion is their choice and to terminate a pregnancy then no they can’t.

The social programs they don’t want would and do reduce abortion rates. But they are against that.

It doesn’t make sense. Because even if you banned abortions they would still happen and worse more women would likely die as a result.

If the goal is the sanctity of life, then being against social programs that encourage life and the carrying to term is hypocritical.

I agree that someone can be pro life and be against social programs to encourage said life. But it is hypocritical.

If you address the reasons WHY women choose abortions you will significantly reduce said abortions.

The issue is that religious dogma weighs heavily in the debate. It’s the same as end of life rights. Religious norms are a big drive against it despite people reaching a point where they just want to end their lives in peace and in their own terms.

I appreciate your concern for mothers to have financial means to support their babies. I think they should have support. I don’t think that lack of support though is a justifiable reason to terminate an unborn innocent helpless developing baby.

Of course abortions would still take place, and more women would likely die, but (not to sound insensitive) that’s the price you pay for trying to murder the vulnerable. I’m really not trying to sound mean… I don’t wish the women attempting an abortion death. I wish them grace and mercy.

I’m not against social programs at all. I’m appreciative of the child benefit my family receives. While I’m aware I can’t fully depend on it.

I think the reason women get abortions is it comes down to selfishness, as harsh as that sounds. It’s an inconvenience. It’s going to be 9 months of carrying this child they may not have wanted. Maybe it’ll bring shame on them from the family. Maybe it’ll be a financial burden. Their life will never be the same. And if the thought of adoption comes up, they may opt not to because they’ll feel bad for “abandoning” their child.

[edit: the quotations to emphasize I would rather they choose adoption rather than abortion]

All I’m trying to say is that the child should be left to develop.

(now to bring this back to politics….)

This is probably one of, if not the, biggest factors in my personal vote and why I’m leaning more towards PPC… if the CPC get a leader who is Pro-Life then I’ll very much consider my vote to them.

I just don’t like how parties, in particular the CPC, try and broaden their views on a lot of issues, in order to gain as many votes they can. Just stay true to what you believe. Easier said than done I know…

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't understand why the abortion file is the hill some want to die on.

If you don't want an abortion don't have one. There its solved for you.

If you want an abortion go have one. There its solved for you.

Now how about both those sides stay out of each others business and way.

 

[LiveFightMove]

I don't understand why the abortion file is the hill some want to die on.

If you don't want an abortion don't have one. There its solved for you.

If you want an abortion go have one. There its solved for you.

Now how about both those sides stay out of each others business and way.

To answer the question: Because my vote might have a play in whether or not innocent lives are saved.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To answer the question: Because my vote might have a play in whether or not innocent lives are saved.

You don't get to make that decision. Nor will your vote sway it. The country has decided and its considered distasteful to keep bringing it up.

You can think what ever you like about innocence lost but its not about you. Its about the people have to go through it and they will live with what ever comes after, good or bad.

I do not support your insistence that you think you have some involvement in this, my one caveat is unless its your partner or you that is at that decision point.

Now as conservatives we can continue to bash against this wall and have us fade further into obscurity and regionalism or we can realize there are other issues we can work on and gain leverage in and leave this behind.

 

[LiveFightMove]

You don't get to make that decision. Nor will your vote sway it. The country has decided and its considered distasteful to keep bringing it up.

You can think what ever you like about innocence lost but its not about you. Its about the people have to go through it and they will live with what ever comes after, good or bad.

I do not support your insistence that you think you have some involvement in this, my one caveat is unless its your partner or you that is at that decision point.

Now as conservatives we can continue to bash against this wall and have us fade further into obscurity and regionalism or we can realize there are other issues we can work on and gain leverage in and leave this behind.

I appreciate your desire to work together and get ahead on issues as conservative.

I don’t care if it’s considered distasteful or if it’s the unpopular view. My conscience is that it’s an evil act that has become socially acceptable. And a view that I was personally okay with before coming to faith in Jesus at 21.

And I agree it’s about the people who have to go through it, specifically the ones who can’t speak for themselves.

I don’t think this is going anywhere so I’ll leave it at that. But I think talking about opposing views is good and should be had so that we can test our own convictions.

 

[Scott]

Give it 18-24 months to see how a PC-CPC-PPC reformation shapes up..

The folks with serious TDS might not survive that long without stroking out. I mean, you saw the straw poll!

 

[dapaterson]

If you don't know the difference between medical and surgical abortion, the prevalence of each, what constitutes viability, what other instant where a D&C may be medically indicated, you don't have a valid opinion.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If you don't know the difference between medical and surgical abortion, the prevalence of each, what constitutes viability, what other instant where a D&C may be medically indicated, you don't have a valid opinion.

I don't really care what the difference is. The country has decided. Move on.

 

[Altair]

I appreciate your desire to work together and get ahead on issues as conservative.

I don’t care if it’s considered distasteful or if it’s the unpopular view. My conscience is that it’s an evil act that has become socially acceptable. And a view that I was personally okay with before coming to faith in Jesus at 21.

And I agree it’s about the people who have to go through it, specifically the ones who can’t speak for themselves.

I don’t think this is going anywhere so I’ll leave it at that. But I think talking about opposing views is good and should be had so that we can test our own convictions.

And its a good thing that conservatives do have open discussion on the topic, and often.

The more the CPC bring it up, the less likely they will be considered for government, especially in urban Canada.

 

[Altair]

I don't really care what the difference is. The country has decided. Move on.

The country has moved on, the SOCONs have not.

And as you see, its religious conviction driving a large part of it, meaning its very hard to move on from that.

 

[Altair]

CityNews

www.google.com

• Seventy-one per cent believe that a woman should be able to get an abortion if she decides she wants one no matter what the reason

• Two thirds (62 per cent) of Canadians identify as pro-choice, one in ten (13 per cent) of Canadians identify as pro-life and one quarter (25%) of Canadians indicate that they do not fit neatly into either category

• Ninety-one per cent of Canadians believe that abortion should be legal when the pregnancy was caused by rape or incest

• Seventy-six per cent of Canadians believe abortion should be legal when there is evidence that the baby may be mentally impaired

I hope that the CPC tries to court that 13 percent of canadians who are actively pro life while alienating the 62 percent who are pro choice.

I mean, just narrow down that base and commit to becoming a protest party as opposed to being a viable alternative to the LPC.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Back on the rails…

No, I was noting how a 3-way split/race would go, ie. PC-reborn, and CPC & PPC continue as standing parties and see where those three parties lead. If the PCs break off, I can see the PPC support deflating and some likely to move back to a ‘more-right’ CPC as the soft, left-wingers head to the PCs. I’m sure there also be some bleed off from the Blue Libs into the PCs (same reason some PPC will come back to the CPC). In the overall spectrum, I think a PC break-off will actual see a reduction of overall LPC levels, so I think we’ll see a battle on the left as well as the right. Then the 2024 race is to build the biggest coalition. Trudeau’s actually doing some damage to the middle-class with his approach to the Freedom Conviy, so anyone who thinks that O’Toole was the only victim should pay attention to 2024. Trudeau may have to break out some tears and an apology when he sees the full impact of his broad brush of racism, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, etc. to the Ottawa protesters.

I have very similar thoughts. Some of the PPC will shift to the CPC as they will be 'happy' that the centre/left CPC will most likely move over to the newly reconstituted PC party and for certain the Lib's will bleed support over to the PC's. My biggest concern is Canada moving more and more towards an Italian version of Parliament, 5-7 parties (some regional, some ideological, some 'flavour of the day'). God help us all if we scrap first past the post as we'll achieve nothing going forward, we'll be worse than Italy, we'll become a new Belgium - God help us if we do.

 

[dimsum]

My biggest concern is Canada moving more and more towards an Italian version of Parliament, 5-7 parties (some regional, some ideological, some 'flavour of the day'). God help us all if we scrap first past the post as we'll achieve nothing going forward, we'll be worse than Italy, we'll become a new Belgium - God help us if we do.

I have a feeling we'd be more like the Australian govt - a couple of major parties and bunch of minor ones.

Even the current govt in power, the Liberal National Party (their version of the Conservatives), is called "the Coalition" because it's actually a coalition of a bunch of little ones.

 

[Quirky]

My conscience is that it’s an evil act that has become socially acceptable. And a view that I was personally okay with before coming to faith in Jesus at 21.

You let an invisible skygod influence your thinking and how you live your life?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Old-style PC isn't going very far if it just picks up where it left off while it was in Mulroney's hands. There will have to compromises based on trades of equal value.

I'm not so certain I would classify it as 'compromise based on trades of equal value'. They need to remind people that it was under Mulroney that the PC's championed the Environment - Mulroney's track record and impressive list of 'wins' proves this - the PC's need to retell this story, let people know that it was they who made these things important to Canadians in the first place and that these issues are still important to them today.
They need to be fiscally prudent, like a Paul Martin but not so much like a Jim Flaherty. Selectively re-capitalise the CAF, pound on the environmental drum, strengthen ties with the US (via spending money on re-building/repurposing/expanding NORAD, joining the Ballistic defence initiative), move forward on the Ingenious issues and revamp the immigration policy to focus more on skilled tradespeople, medical and high-tech professionals and alot less on these 'paper entrepreneurs', fly by night investors, 2nd passports seekers and family reunifications.

 

[Altair]

I have very similar thoughts. Some of the PPC will shift to the CPC as they will be 'happy' that the centre/left CPC will most likely move over to the newly reconstituted PC party and for certain the Lib's will bleed support over to the PC's. My biggest concern is Canada moving more and more towards an Italian version of Parliament, 5-7 parties (some regional, some ideological, some 'flavour of the day'). God help us all if we scrap first past the post as we'll achieve nothing going forward, we'll be worse than Italy, we'll become a new Belgium - God help us if we do.

We are already there?

Since 2004 there have been two majority governments, 2011 and 2015.

There have been 4 minority governments in that time.

We have 4 parties consistently winning double diget seats in parliament, with 1 winning single digets, and another one likely on the way in the PPC.

But at the end of the day, the system works because there is common ground between most parties.

The LPC works with the BQ and the NDP, the CPC works with the BQ.

I hope the CPC doesnt veer too far right in an attempt to chase down those PPC votes, because that would break the system. The less moderate the CPC is the less likely the 5-6 out of 10 left leaning canadians will be confortable with them winning leading to ABC votes denying the CPC a chance of forming government.

 

[Czech_pivo]

We are already there?

Since 2004 there have been two majority governments, 2011 and 2015.

There have been 4 minority governments in that time.

We have 4 parties consistently winning double diget seats in parliament, with 1 winning single digets, and another one likely on the way in the PPC.

But at the end of the day, the system works because there is common ground between most parties.

The LPC works with the BQ and the NDP, the CPC works with the BQ.

I hope the CPC doesnt veer too far right in an attempt to chase down those PPC votes, because that would break the system. The less moderate the CPC is the less likely the 5-6 out of 10 left leaning canadians will be confortable with them winning leading to ABC votes denying the CPC a chance of forming government.

The LPC works with the BQ simply because since God was a young man the leader of the LPC has always been from Quebec. The LPC has managed to keep those outside of Quebec as 'mushrooms' in terms of not realising this. Except for the brief moment in time when JT the 1st, not to be confused with the current JT the 2nd, held power ever so briefly from Vancouver Quadra and when MI was elected leader for 18 months, the LPC has been run from Quebec since 1968.

 

[Altair]

The LPC works with the BQ simply because since God was a young man the leader of the LPC has always been from Quebec. The LPC has managed to keep those outside of Quebec as 'mushrooms' in terms of not realising this. Except for the brief moment in time when JT the 1st, not to be confused with the current JT the 2nd, held power ever so briefly from Vancouver Quadra and when MI was elected leader for 18 months, the LPC has been run from Quebec since 1968.

The LPC and BQ are not representing the same Quebec.

BQ is the rural reactionary Quebec, LPC is the urban and suburban Quebec.

Nationalists and globalist.

The two do not always mix well, especially with the LPC still having its base in urban ontario and BC as well as montreal and the suburbs.

The LPC get along far better with the NDP.

The interesting part is the CPC getting along with the BQ. I mean, it makes sense since the BQ is an offshoot of the CPC but they both have that rural reactionary base, seperated only by the enviorment and language.

(I would have included seperation from canada but that seems to more or less dead these days)

 

[The Bread Guy]

... My biggest concern is Canada moving more and more towards an Italian version of Parliament, 5-7 parties (some regional, some ideological, some 'flavour of the day'). God help us all if we scrap first past the post as we'll achieve nothing going forward, we'll be worse than Italy, we'll become a new Belgium ...

Or a new Israel, who's had a number of government combos over time, with (loud, boisterous debate/discussion happening there all the time) not unreasonable results. Depends on the players and the voters in question, maybe ...