2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[dimsum]

When PP and the Tories do stuff like this, it’s almost like they don’t want to defeat Trudeau.

Replace Ford with CPC.

 

[The Bread Guy]

You actually should read the articles... You as a general term, not meant as you in particular @The Bread Guy

A couple of PPs quotes.

"Poilievre told reporters on Wednesday that his party supports free trade with Ukraine, pointing out that former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper’s government had negotiated the original free trade deal in 2015. The deal took effect in 2017, when Trudeau was prime minister."

"Poilievre said that Conservatives would remove any reference to the carbon tax in the Canada-Ukraine free trade deal if his party took office, and would instead focus on providing Canadian energy and munitions to Ukraine so that it can defend itself against Russia’s invasion." ...

All very good points, well made & shared for the rest of the story!

By one narrative, though, it's shown which hill the party is willing to die on: better to not support free trade with Ukraine than to show any scintilla of support for carbon pricing, even if it's happening in another jurisdiction that's already ok with it.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. So far, I tend to agree with the yellow bit, and adopt a wait-and-see on the green bit (especially with so much time between now and a reasonably-predicted election) ....

... Does it move the needle? I doubt it but death by a thousand cuts is a thing ...

 

[Halifax Tar]

All very good points, well made & shared for the rest of the story!

By one narrative, though, it's shown which hill the party is willing to die on: better to not support free trade with Ukraine than to show any scintilla of support for carbon pricing, even if it's happening in another jurisdiction that's already ok with it.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. So far, I tend to agree with the yellow bit, and adopt a wait-and-see on the green bit (especially with so much time between now and a reasonably-predicted election) ....

You have look ahead. If PP supports this, come the inevitable campaign whenever that may be, the Carbon Tax is going to be a key issue.

He has to stay the course on this or it becomes another wishy washy position. And this would have allowed the LPC to run with it.

PP is pretty unequivocally supportive of Ukraine and their fight. But he's against the carbon tax, so all the LPC has to do is remove that.

 

[TacticalTea]

By all accounts yesterday was not the best day for the CPC.

The mishap language about the bridge incident. Scheer’s doxing of two senators and Ukraine support.

Does it move the needle? I doubt it but death by a thousand cuts is a thing.

Hard core CPC types need to remember that PP isn’t that popular overall and that things right now are more about dissatisfaction with the liberals than being enamoured with the CPC.

I'm not sure that's true. Even in Quebec, voting intentions are slowly swinging towards the CPC, even when Quebecers already have another non-government option in the form of the Bloc.

People's opinion of PP has also turned green, which indicates that Canadians would actually want him in, not just Trudeau out.

---

On the Ukraine Carbon Tax deal specifically: CPC opposition won't actually kybosh the whole thing, so Liberals are getting a bit too uppity for not much (especially Seamus O'Reagan, who implied that the CPC was in cahoots with the Russians or something to that effect).

I would also mention that there is something wickedly sadistic in imposing a carbon tax on a country that would've highly benefitted had Canada and Europe not turned to Russian gas under pretense of a green, anti-carbon transition.

 

[Good2Golf]

I would also mention that there is something wickedly sadistic in imposing a carbon tax on a country that would've highly benefitted had Canada and Europe not turned to Russian gas under pretense of a green, anti-carbon transition.

This is a point that shouldn’t go unappreciated— it was bad enough that Canada felt that assisting Europe and Ukraine with alternative energy sourcing wasn’t acceptable to its lofty green 2050 net-zero aspirations…too deeply integrate carbon taxation into an attempt to assist a country fighting for its survival is pretty twisted…

 

[Remius]

I'm not sure that's true. Even in Quebec, voting intentions are slowly swinging towards the CPC, even when Quebecers already have another non-government option in the form of the Bloc.

People's opinion of PP has also turned green, which indicates that Canadians would actually want him in, not just Trudeau out.

---

On the Ukraine Carbon Tax deal specifically: CPC opposition won't actually kybosh the whole thing, so Liberals are getting a bit too uppity for not much (especially Seamus O'Reagan, who implied that the CPC was in cahoots with the Russians or something to that effect).

I would also mention that there is something wickedly sadistic in imposing a carbon tax on a country that would've highly benefitted had Canada and Europe not turned to Russian gas under pretense of a green, anti-carbon transition.

If one actually reads the agreement there is actually no imposition. It’s an aspirational statement not a condition. Ukraine has a carbon tax and it was a condition for admission to the EU.

The vote against it was mostly a political statement for domestic consumption. But again, one they are now forced to explain.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... I would also mention that there is something wickedly sadistic in imposing a carbon tax on a country ...

…too deeply integrate carbon taxation into an attempt to assist a country fighting for its survival is pretty twisted…

Carbon pricing's been in place for a while in Ukraine (since 2011 according to one reasonable source), so "impose" or "deeply integrate" may not be the best term to use, especially when so many people say Canada has next-to-zero influence internationally, much less on any one partner, these days.

Ukraine Has the World’s Lowest Carbon Tax - Climate Scorecard

The only financial instrument that Ukraine has to stimulate the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is a carbon tax. It is the lowest carbon tax in the world at 10 UAH (0.40 USD – March, 2020). The tax applies only to objects that emit more than 500 tons of carbon dioxide per year. This tax...

www.climatescorecard.org

... that would've highly benefitted had Canada and Europe not turned to Russian gas under pretense of a green, anti-carbon transition.

... it was bad enough that Canada felt that assisting Europe and Ukraine with alternative energy sourcing wasn’t acceptable to its lofty green 2050 net-zero aspirations ...

Bang on with these points!

 

[Good2Golf]

Carbon pricing's been in place for a while in Ukraine (since 2011 according to one reasonable source), so "impose" or "deeply integrate" may not be the best term to use, especially when so many people say Canada has next-to-zero influence internationally, much less on any one partner, these days.

So the GoC shouldn’t have any issue pulling its own elements from the Free Trade agreement, and trust that Ukraine’s more advanced carbon taxation regime is more than sufficient…

 

[MilEME09]

If one actually reads the agreement there is actually no imposition. It’s an aspirational statement not a condition. Ukraine has a carbon tax and it was a condition for admission to the EU.

The vote against it was mostly a political statement for domestic consumption. But again, one they are now forced to explain.

it was also in the original text in 2017 to my understanding and the current 2023 amendment has nothing to do with it, sounds like political cheap shots

 

[The Bread Guy]

So the GoC shouldn’t have any issue pulling its own elements from the Free Trade agreement, and trust that Ukraine’s more advanced carbon taxation regime is more than sufficient…

Assuming the other partner in the deal is OK with it, why not?

And would JT get credit for doing what's best for everyone in that (unlikely) event? Not likely - but now that PP's dug in on "nothing is bigger than carbon tax cancellation," maybe JT'll dig in on his end to keep making it look like PP's anti-Ukraine. Funny how those partisan shot blinders work both ways.

 

[Brad Sallows]

All of our involvements with foreign nations benefit from having moralizing facets attached to them, by increasing foreign respect for Canada and our stature among nations.

 

[The Bread Guy]

All of our involvements with foreign nations benefit from having moralizing facets attached to them, by increasing foreign respect for Canada and our stature among nations.

Ideally -- depending on whether one agrees with the "moralizing facets" in question, of course. One person's "showing the way" is another's "butting your nose in someone else's business."

 

[GK .Dundas]

And the Conservatives accuse the Liberals of virtue signaling.
Pot meet kettle....

 

[The Bread Guy]

And the Conservatives accuse the Liberals of virtue signaling.
Pot meet kettle....

 

[Halifax Tar]

And the Conservatives accuse the Liberals of virtue signaling.
Pot meet kettle....

They're not ?

 

[GK .Dundas]

View attachment 81381

All Canadian politicians seem to be locked into a nonstop election mode . Let me rephrase that they're locked into sleazy nonstop election mode.
Everything and everyone is fairgame no matter how destructive it is.

 

[Furniture]

If one actually reads the agreement there is actually no imposition. It’s an aspirational statement not a condition. Ukraine has a carbon tax and it was a condition for admission to the EU.

The vote against it was mostly a political statement for domestic consumption. But again, one they are now forced to explain.

A domestic audience that is pretty against carbon taxes these days...

Most Canadians want carbon tax reduced or killed: poll

So, apart from the few people who religiously follow politics, and have already made up their mind to dislike PP, how exactly is this supposed to hurt the CPC?

 

[Remius]

A domestic audience that is pretty against carbon taxes these days...

Most Canadians want carbon tax reduced or killed: poll

So, apart from the few people who religiously follow politics, and have already made up their mind to dislike PP, how exactly is this supposed to hurt the CPC?

I’m not sure it will hurt them overall to be honest. But the LPC has seized on it and are painting the CPC as not supporting Ukraine. In their attempt to seize on a carbon pricing mention, the CPC has created a perception or at least the opening to create that perception of not supporting Ukraine. Not sure that was a smart move.

Like I said, the CPC had a bad day yesterday. They were put on the defensive on a number of things. It wasn’t crippling, and I doubt it changes much long term. I’m sure it will be forgotten in a cycle or two.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... Everything and everyone is fairgame no matter how destructive it is.

... even if it goes against bigger goals that most people could support.

... apart from the few people who religiously follow politics, and have already made up their mind to dislike PP, how exactly is this supposed to hurt the CPC?

By painting the CPC as anti-Ukraine, or at least more worried about any reference to carbon pricing than about supporting a country at war happy to keep doing open trade with Canada.

Will it be successful? Boosters're gonna keep boosting, haters're gonna keep hating, so who really knows even if polling shows one thing or another. This & the Rainbow Bridge initial position certainly goes against the softer, gentler, more PM-ish look Team Blue has been trying to cultivate (quite successfully IMHO) over the past while. We'll have to see.

 

[Halifax Tar]

But the LPC has seized on it and are painting the CPC as not supporting Ukraine.

By painting the CPC as anti-Ukraine

Did they really though ? Or is that just what they and their final stand supporters think and want you to think ?