Replacing the Subs

[Cloud Cover]

I'd always heard it was he Danes and they'd started planting in the spring following Nelson's visit to Copenhagen..

I’d heard it was Canadians in Ottawa who spent 1.7Billion for reforestation and planted no trees, but pre- taxed the future lumber profits anyway.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

View attachment 90525

HMS Temeraire, last of the Ships of the Line that fought at Trafalgar being towed to the scrapyard by a filthy little steam tug in 1838.

98 guns, Second Rate Three Decker, complement of 738

Ordered 1790 - 9 December
Laid Down 1793
Launched 1798 - 11 September
Battle of Trafalgar 1805 - 21 October
Prison ship 1813–1819
Receiving ship 1820–1828
Victualling depot 1828–1836
Guard ship 1836–1838
Scrapped 1838

48 years of life
8 years to get her in the water
25 years as a hulk
15 years of service

HMS Temeraire (1798) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She has a fascinating history.

...

HMS Victory, a 104 gun First Rate Three Decker,

Was ordered in July 1758 and laid down a year later in July 1759, the year of Minden, Quebec, Lagos, Pondicherry and Quiberon.
She was launched six years later in 1765, after the Seven Years war was concluded but she wasn't commissioned until 1778 for the American Revolution, 13 years later.
She fought from Ushant in 1778 to Trafalgar in 1805 - 27 years of service after waiting 20 years between being ordered and being commissioned.

She is still in service.

...

Point being. The Old RN and HM Governments weren't much better then than they are now.

After Waterloo all of those old ships of the line were laid up and left to rot before being decommissioned. The RN needed lots of frigates and sloops for its constabulary work suppressing the slavers.

...

By the time war broke out again in the 1850s the demand was for steamers.

...

Difficult predicting future requirements.

In a lot of these cases, a hull would get laid down, but if there was no war, there was no particular hurry to finish and commission the ship. Commissioned ships cost HM Govt money. Ships out of commission (essentially a hull with a roof over it) were cheap.

English shipyards could build ships of the line much faster if they needed to. They often chose not to.

 

[Cloud Cover]

In a lot of these cases, a hull would get laid down, but if there was no war, there was no particular hurry to finish and commission the ship. Commissioned ships cost HM Govt money. Ships out of commission (essentially a hull with a roof over it) were cheap.

English shipyards could build ships of the line much faster if they needed to. They often chose not to.

Recognizing, of course, how long it takes a water wheel powered lumber mill to saw a plank with rigid saw blades that were 1/4” thick. Hand sawyers had, by their tens of thousands, moved to North America.
And interestingly, during the US War of Independence, mills, forges and sawyers tools (along with the sawyers themselves) were often destroyed by the British, who previously relied on them to make planking and timbers for UK based warship and freighter construction.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Recognizing, of course, how long it takes a water wheel powered lumber mill to saw a plank with rigid saw blades that were 1/4” thick. Hand sawyers had, by their tens of thousands, moved to North America.
And interestingly, during the US War of Independence, mills, forges and sawyers tools (along with the sawyers themselves) were often destroyed by the British, who previously relied on them to make planking and timbers for UK based warship and freighter construction.

The loss of the American oak stocks was a real sore point for the RN in the years following the success of the American Revolution.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting ship capabilities Poland just ordered.

Poland orders new Ratownik submarine rescue and seabed warfare vessel​

Poland orders new Ratownik submarine rescue and seabed warfare vessel - Naval News

The Polish Armament Agency and PGZ signed a contract for the construction and delivery of the Ratownik submarine rescue ship for the Polish Navy

www.navalnews.com

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, if we truly get onboard a 12 submarines acquisition program, we too will need a submarine rescue/deep dive support vessel on each coast. The last one, HMCS CORMORANT, retired long, long ago.

 

[DBNSG]

Actually, if we truly get onboard a 12 submarines acquisition program, we too will need a submarine rescue/deep dive support vessel on each coast. The last one, HMCS CORMORANT, retired long, long ago.

Might that be a job , another job, for the AOPS fleet?

 

[quadrapiper]

Might that be a job , another job, for the AOPS fleet?

Maybe the same hull, depending where/when you wanted to be able operate, but a much more specialized permanent equipment fit, potentially including (depending on whether it's a purely rescue/deep dive vessel, or if you want to bundle some depot ship functions), rescue submersible(s), their heavy gantry, shops, parts stowage, facilities for various sorts of diving kit, quarters for submarine crew, floats, gangways, and booms with associated lifting gear, likely decompression facilities, torpedo magazines and shops, cranes for stores transfer, and undoubtedly about a hundred things I've missed.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No. While the AOPS are certainly better suited than the frigates to bring and deploy SUBSMASH gear to the aid of a submarine, there are things that only a deep sea diving support vessel can do and they carry and can deploy more of the support gear and more sophisticated gear. Moreover, such vessel is manned by Clearance Divers and as such, bring more diving, ROV operating, UUV operation, mini-sub and Side Scan sonar expertise than anyone else could.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Oops! I was beaten to the punch. Refer to Quadrapiper above.

 

[YZT580]

Maybe the same hull, depending where/when you wanted to be able operate, but a much more specialized permanent equipment fit, potentially including (depending on whether it's a purely rescue/deep dive vessel, or if you want to bundle some depot ship functions), rescue submersible(s), their heavy gantry, shops, parts stowage, facilities for various sorts of diving kit, quarters for submarine crew, floats, gangways, and booms with associated lifting gear, likely decompression facilities, torpedo magazines and shops, cranes for stores transfer, and undoubtedly about a hundred things I've missed.

So take the two hulls from the coast guard (they didn't want them anyways) and set them up permanently. Problem solved and they are already under construction so fulfillment of contract will be super=fast.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No, for two reasons:

(1) We have not committed to building 12 submarines yet; and,

(2) the internal modifications to AOPS that would be required to turn them into proper Deepsea diving support/submarine rescue ships are extensive and I just don't want to give ISL another $500M just for redesigning an existing design, when it would be cheaper to design/build from scratch based on the requirements of a proper DSDS ship.

 

[childs56]

No. While the AOPS are certainly better suited than the frigates to bring and deploy SUBSMASH gear to the aid of a submarine, there are things that only a deep sea diving support vessel can do and they carry and can deploy more of the support gear and more sophisticated gear. Moreover, such vessel is manned by Clearance Divers and as such, bring more diving, ROV operating, UUV operation, mini-sub and Side Scan sonar expertise than anyone else could.

Like what is specialized that cant be installed or fitted in a sea can?

 

[Kirkhill]

If subs then perhaps something more like this?

Or variant thereof?

 

[Furniture]

If subs then perhaps something more like this?

Or variant thereof?

You won't be breaking ice and doing sub rescue, so why insist on an ice breaker? If we're picking designs out of a hat, the Polish one posted just a few replies up looks sufficient, and it's purpose designed for the role.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Forcing existing ships to sub in as inefficient and poorly suited dive ships is incredibly Canadian, but I'd much rather them purchase or build say a pair of converted/purpose built vessels for the task.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Like what is specialized that cant be installed or fitted in a sea can?

A frame, large hyperbaric chamber, medical facilities and station keeping.

2 AOP's could be tasked with a minimalistic setup, till proper vessels built and manned by auxiliaries. But we would need to be about into 6 subs by that time.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And heliox. The amount of heliox you need and the handling equipment for it will never fit in a can.

And that's just one more thing among many.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Does the fact that Parliament will not sit until towards the end of March affect the next phase (end of Feb) of the submarine selection process?

 

[calculus]

Does the fact that Parliament will not sit until towards the end of March affect the next phase (end of Feb) of the submarine selection process?

I don't think so. That date marks the closing of the RFI. The project office will presumably take all that data and come up with recommendations that will form the basis of the RFP, unless they come up with a recommendation to sole source. All this will take many months in any case.
I don't know any other published dates than contract award in 2028 (which I personally think is too late). I don't see anything in the short term that would require an active session of parliament - the bureaucrats should be able to handle it all.