Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

[daftandbarmy]

Or the 'Jack Wagon'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5njAp0-zN4

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

>

 

[daftandbarmy]

In my (limited) experience, this is a good example of one of the main reasons why most women can't make it in the Infantry: load carrying capacity


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w846UcmIo5o

 

[Strike]

In my (limited) experience, this is a good example of one of the main reasons why most women can't make it in the Infantry: load carrying capacity


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w846UcmIo5o

I'm glad you said most and not all.  Have an MP friend who must weigh 110 soaking wet who passed the jump course last spring.  Mind you, she admitted to having problems waddling to the door to jump, but more because her kit was hanging so low (she's barely 5').

 

[UnwiseCritic]

Everyone has problems waddling to the door. That is to say it's not comfortable but after you stand up for far too long your always happy to oblige. Jump course itself is not that hard, they don't physically work you. Just keep you loose, as the beating comes from the mock tower. At least in Edmonton. It really is a shame the course doesn't prepare people for the para role, much like the brits where the standard is higher. But we don't have that kind of funding nor does Canada seem to have the same sadist mentality. But now it seems even England might put their para role into a "sustainment" program instead of a legitimate capability.

On the woman side of things I have never met a female infanteer knowingly. I have seen 2 fail DP1 and 1 fail para, lots of men failed as well. I'm sure the percentages of women failures are higher than men, after all we are different. That being said I got my but kicked by a woman on Mountain Man.

Does it mean we don't spend money on them, not letting them try?
Does it mean we get rid of the double standard?
Or does it mean we just keep on doing what we're doing?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not really surprised.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/25/pentagon-mulling-separate-combat-training-men-wome/

The military is looking at ways to modify its training for women to help them qualify for direct ground combat roles in the infantry, tanks and special operations.

Senior officers revealed the new effort this week at a hearing of the House Armed Services subcommittee on personnel.

The armed services have pledged that their standards for ground combat and commando operations will be the same for men and women.

But now commanders are raising the possibility of a two-tiered training system.

The idea was presented by Rep. Niki Tsongas.


“To put in place a training regimen that is ill-suited to maximizing the success of women is not really the outcome any of us want to see,” she said.

Army Lt. Gen. Howard Bromberg, deputy chief of staff for personnel, agreed.

“We are looking at that, and we’re not looking at it just for the integration of women,” Gen. Bromberg testified. “We’re looking at it for the total soldier, because just as you have a 110-pound male who may lack some type of physiological capability or physical capability, he or she may both need to be trained differently. We’re trying to expand our understanding of how we train.”

Lt. Gen. Robert Milstead Jr., deputy Marine Corps commandant for manpower, put forward a pitch for gender-segregated boot camp. The Corps is the only service that has maintained gender-segregated initial training.

“I think an excellent example of what you’re talking about is our gender-separated boot camp,” Gen. Milstead testified. “We don’t start teaching the [occupations] there. Our boot camp is about the transformation of individuals, men and women, from being a civilian to being a United States Marine. We have it separated for that reason, because we feel that this transformation, it goes on a separate track. It needs to be handled different.

“They need to be nurtured different. They just need different steps as they go. They end up in the same place, the United States Marines.”

The Marine Corps has charged to the front of the women-in-combat issue by asking female officer volunteers to try to complete the officer combat qualification course at the base in Quantico, Va.

Women are expected to perform the same tasks as men. All six women who have entered the course have dropped out due to injury or failure to complete the course.

The Pentagon lifted the ban on women in direct combat roles in January. The services and U.S. Special Operations Command are studying combat standards to validate or change them before a decision is made to move women into those roles in January 2016.

 

[PMedMoe]

Gender separated boot camp is a bad idea.... That's where they learn to be part of a team.

Just my  :2c:

 

[The Bread Guy]

Gender separated boot camp is a bad idea.... That's where they learn to be part of a team.

Just my  :2c:

Then, you'd have to have female-only units, since one trains as one fights, right?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Then, you'd have to have female-only units, since one trains as one fights, right?

Worked for Homer ... just sayin'

 

[Jarnhamar]

The comment about a 110lb man needing special training seems like a lame attempt at misdirection.

They should just be honest- they want female soldiers to be a part of combat units, special forces etc.. and that means they're going to lower the physical standards to facilitate it.

 

[Jed]

Not really surprised.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/25/pentagon-mulling-separate-combat-training-men-wome/

In 1974, the CAF ran all female ROUTP courses out of Shilo. I'm not sure how well it worked. I believe 1973 was the last all male ROUTP for the Army in Shilo.

 

[George Wallace]

In 1974, the CAF ran all female ROUTP courses out of Shilo. I'm not sure how well it worked. I believe 1973 was the last all male ROUTP for the Army in Shilo.

This is a "yes and no" fact.  Yes, there was an all female platoon, who were quartered in the Diefenbunker there.  They were 5 Platoon; only one of nine platoons being run during that summer trg cycle.  They were not totally segregated in any means other than being a platoon that was not quartered in the H huts.  They partook in all the training the other eight male platoons took part in.  All nine platoons ate, trained and took part in the large scale exercises, as well as fought a prairie fire set off by the German artillery as one Phase I ROUTP Crse.

They did the same Aid to Civil Power Exercise; the same River Assaults; 2 X 10 Mile March, 6 ft wall, 440 run, trench crossing and Fireman's carry; firing on the ranges; Drill; Mech Platoon operations; etc. that the rest of the platoons did.  Other than quarters, they were not truly segregated......and fraternization did take place.

 

[ballz]

Really? Segregation? Didn't the US try this already from 1896 - 1970 with black people? I forgot how well that all turned out...

This is unbelievable.

 

[armyvern]

The comment about a 110lb man needing special training seems like a lame attempt at misdirection.

They should just be honest- they want female soldiers to be a part of combat units, special forces etc.. and that means they're going to lower the physical standards to facilitate it.

Sure as heck seems like it. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Really? Segregation? Didn't the US try this already from 1896 - 1970 with black people? I forgot how well that all turned out...

This is unbelievable.

This sounds more like 'affirmative action', which those of the Democratic persuasion support wholeheartedly.


The term "affirmative action" was first used in the United States in Executive Order 10925 and was signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961; it was used to promote actions that achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson enacted Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to take "affirmative action" to hire without regard to race, religion and national origin. In 1967, gender was added to the anti-discrimination list.[3]

Purpose
Affirmative action is intended to promote the opportunities of defined groups within a society. It is often instituted in government and educational settings to ensure that minority groups within a society are included in all programs. The stated justification for affirmative action by its proponents is that it helps to compensate for past discrimination, persecution or exploitation by the ruling class of a culture,[4] and to address existing discrimination.[5] The implementation of affirmative action, especially in the United States, is considered by its proponents to be justified by disparate impact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

 

[Jarnhamar]

Brought up in another thread, Rodger Young was 5'2 and probably around 110 lbs and didn't receive special training due to his "smaller size".
That didn't stop him from taking out a machine gun position with rifle fire and grenades despite being hit multiple times in the process.

 

[ballz]

This sounds more like 'affirmative action', which those of the Democratic persuasion support wholeheartedly.

I don't like affirmative action either, but what I've quoted below is talking about segregation...

"Lt. Gen. Robert Milstead Jr., deputy Marine Corps commandant for manpower, put forward a pitch for gender-segregated boot camp. The Corps is the only service that has maintained gender-segregated initial training.

“I think an excellent example of what you’re talking about is our gender-separated boot camp,” Gen. Milstead testified. “We don’t start teaching the [occupations] there. Our boot camp is about the transformation of individuals, men and women, from being a civilian to being a United States Marine. We have it separated for that reason, because we feel that this transformation, it goes on a separate track. It needs to be handled different.

“They need to be nurtured different. They just need different steps as they go. They end up in the same place, the United States Marines.”

 

[IRepoCans]

New information on the gender physical/mental standard(s), and from whats booming around the webs; seems like a lot of folks aren't pleased.

Double standard: Pentagon hints at changes to allow more women in ground combat

Public statements from the Pentagon since it removed the ban on direct ground combat jobs for women signal that the armed services plan to change their physical standards to ensure integration of the sexes, analysts say.

A review of news conferences and congressional testimony shows that the top brass repeatedly use the word “validate” — not necessarily “retain” — when talking about ongoing studies of tasks to qualify for infantry, armored and special operations jobs.

In other words, some physical standards would be lowered for men and women on the argument that certain tasks are outdated or irrelevant.
A compilation of the studies’ results will play a major role in late 2015, when the services decide which combat jobs to open or keep closed to women.
Senior officers for the first time also are stressing the mental aspect of ground combat, not just physical strength and endurance. Analysts say that is another sign that the military is looking at different ways to ensure that women qualify...


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/5/pentagon-hints-at-changes-to-allow-more-women-in-g/#ixzz2bI8iEj6w

 

[UnwiseCritic]

"The administration and its ideological radical feminist soul mates are willing to accept less effectiveness at the point of the spear in order to put women into every last military occupational specialty.”----------Asinine!



‘Why is it that high?’” Gen. Dempsey said.......... Is that seriously a hard question to ask?

 

[MikeL]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20130824/CAREERS02/308240009/Marine-Corps-will-open-infantry-training-enlisted-women

Marine Corps to open infantry training to enlisted women
Aug. 24, 2013 - 04:51PM 
By Andrew deGrandpre
Staff writer

The Marine Corps will allow enlisted women to participate in basic infantry training beginning this fall as part of ongoing research to determine what additional ground combat jobs may open to female personnel.

New female enlisted Marines will volunteer for spots in the service’s Infantry Training Battalion, mirroring a related effort allowing new female lieutenants to enroll in the Corps’ Infantry Officer Course, according to an official planning document obtained by Marine Corps Times. Titled “Assignment of Women in Combat Units,” the document is dated Aug. 16.

“Female Marines will have the opportunity to go through the same infantry training course as their male counterparts,” the document states. However, as with the research involving female officers, “female enlisted Marines who successfully complete infantry training as part of this research process will not be assigned infantry as a military occupational specialty and will not be assigned to infantry units.”

It’s unclear whether any enlisted women have volunteered yet. Marine Corps officials were not immediately available to discuss the plan.

Infantry Training Battalion is part of the Marine Corps’ School of Infantry, the first stop for all new Marines once they’ve graduated from boot camp. The service operates two such schools, one at Camp Geiger along the North Carolina coast and one at Camp Pendleton in southern California.

Enlisted infantry school lasts eight weeks and includes a mix of physical training, classroom work and overnight field exercises that involve live-fire events, according to the Marine Corps’ website. Future grunts learn a host of skills while there, including weapons handling and marksmanship, patrolling and land navigation, and how to spot and react to improvised explosives. They live in tents through some of the program and at times sleep outside in fighting positions.

The inclusion of women in infantry training is part of the Marine Corps’ extensive research process stemming from the Defense Department’s historic decision earlier this year to repeal its Direct Combat Exclusion Rule, enacted in 1994. The move opened about 237,000 jobs to women across all of the services, including nearly 54,000 jobs in the Marine Corps. While some troops see it as a step toward equal rights, others contend it will weaken the military’s combat units.

The Corps’ research is expected to last years, and Marine officials have said no women will join infantry units before 2015. Even then, the services will be allowed to ask for exceptions that, if granted by the Pentagon, could keep some jobs closed to women.