What have I dug myself into? Armored officer :D

[LordVagabond]

Well, as many now know, I handed in my application for DEO Armored Officer (first choice) last week! 

My question is... what can I be expecting? I want the responsibility of being an officer, but the army recruiting vid is kind of vague. I have read pretty much every thread in this section of the forums, as well as read all the official blop on the army site and the recruiting site.

I guess I'm asking: how much time will I get to spend being an actual troop commander? What level of vehicle am I looking at being familiar with (ie G-Wagons, MBTs, LAVIIIs, all three and more)? And, most importantly...do I get to blow stuff up?  :blotto: (kidding)

I know that officer professions, even in the combat arms, are 90% deskwork, 10% fieldwork, but I have heard that armored officers do get out to have more fun once in a while with their troops  :warstory:

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

As an Armoured Officer your will normally be "badged" and posted to a Regiment upon graduation from the Armour School.  These days all are getting trained as Reconnaissance Troop Leaders.  If you go RCD (Petawawa) or 12 RBC (Valcartier) you will be a Recce Troop Leader on Coyotes.  If you go LdSH(RC) you could also go "Direct Fire Support" (DFS), which today is Leopards and in the plan for the future is MGS (the Mobile Gun System).  DFS is still in development and I'm not even sure if the Tp Ldr will end up in an MGS or will have a LAV III.

In any case, you will probably be a Troop Leader for two years.  Hopefully, your first year will have several exercises culminating in a "serial" at the Canadian Maneouvre Training Centre (CMTC) in Alberta.  This is your chance to hone your skills in the field with your Troop as part of the Squadron.  Your second year could include a deployment somewhere.  For many, the third year at the Regiment will see you as a Squadron Liaison Officer, Transport Officer, Assistant Adjutant or some other appointment.  This is a chance to widen your view and experience.  Some lucky ones get three years as a Recce or MGS/DFS Troop Leader but that would probably be the exception.

As a Troop Leader you are responsible for the operational effectiveness of your Troop.  This could be up to eight vehicles and thirty soldiers.  You are responsible to the Officer Commanding of the Squadron for the training of your Troop, the readiness of the vehicles and the overrall fighting efficiency of the troop.  You will develop and execute plans in accordance with his orders and are responsible for the success or failure.  This is a big responsibility, but you are far from alone.  There will be a Troop Warrant Officer (Tp WO) who is fully qualified to lead the Troop.  He will probably have between sixteen and twenty years of soldiering.  You are in Command, but you will most certainly need your Tp WO's help and support to succeed.  You and the Tp Wo are a Command Team.  He will continue your training and development that was started at the School.  Think of yourself as an apprentice to some degree.  You will also have Sergeants and Master Corporals who are also seasoned veterans.  Finally, your soldiers will have been very well trained and many will have operational experience. 

As a Troop Leader you will indeed deal with the Troop's paperwork.  You are the first link in the chain and handling paperwork right is a big part of looking after your soldiers.  You might spend two to three months on exercise in the field.  The rest is "training" or leave.  Some years have more exercises than others.  You will have one or two "gunnery" training periods where you get to take your Troop to the ranges.  In any case, if you get through the training and become a Troop Leader make sure that you take every opportunity to learn and develop.  It should be an awesome time, if a little daunting.

Best of luck,

2B

 

[LordVagabond]

Thanks for the reply  ;D

I actually went and had an informal chat with one of the interviewers at CFRC Calgary the other day, as I went in to just have a peek at the status of my application as I haven't been called in a bit. He asked me the regular basic questions, and then told me that maybe, if I want the actual experience of a armored soldier, it would be better for me to change my application to NCM vs Officer, do some time as a regular soldier, then CFR after a few years so I have a better understanding of how vehicular tactics and armored troop movements work. I'm considering it.... opinion? I think it would actually get me more time in an armored vehicle, which is something I want  :warstory:

 

[career_radio-checker]

Ever applied for a job at a large public organization and during the application process the interviewer asks: "Have you thought of volunteering?"

Happened to me when I applied to the Aviation Museum and I never got the position. Could be the recruiter is giving you a heads up.






Edit: Edited for spelling

 

[LordVagabond]

Well, I have no problems serving as a regular force soldier. I just want in to the CF  ;D :warstory: For me, there is no other career out there 

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Sounds like you have the right mind-set going in.  Just make sure that you go for something that you want.  I do not have the recruiter-speak decoder ring so I'd be careful about reading too much into what is said.

As Obi Wan says, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."

Best of luck!

2B

 

[LordVagabond]

I know that I want in to the combat arms. I don't want artillery because I don't have the math scores for that profession, and I do not want to be a sapper, despite them getting to blow stuff up most of the time. It's Armored or Infantry for me   :warstory: As someone posted in another thread, I hear the call of arms and it's ringing loudly off the hook  8)

I guess I should ask, if I go that direction: what is the average armored crewman's life like? I remember reading somewhere that armored does a lot of make-work, but also maintenance and some fun stuff  ;D

 

[LordVagabond]

Well, after a good LONG (like 2.5 hours) sit and talk with a former Armor Crewman at CFRC Calgary (he transferred to infantry), I have had my application.... CHANGED! 

I am no longer looking at going officer. I want field experience, I love the outdoors, I love vehicles, and I don't mind the odd bit of physical labor  so I have now applied as an "Armored Soldier (Crewman)"  8)

Why the change? Well, one of the top things I was looking at when applying was actual field exposure, and officers seem to drive desks most of the time vs driving armored vehicles and such. Also, I wanted to experience the tight intergration that a company level soldier experiences with other soldiers vs the lesser integration of an officer (ie more person-to-person time vs person-via-paper time).

And best of all... as soon as I changed my application to "Armored Soldier (Crewman)," they wanted to fly me off to BMQ in February  I still have 4 months of university to finish first, so if anyone is planning on going to any of the summer BMQ courses.... who knows, I might see you there  :warstory:

 

[DG-41]

Well, one of the top things I was looking at when applying was actual field exposure, and officers seem to drive desks most of the time vs driving armored vehicles and such. Also, I wanted to experience the tight intergration that a company level soldier experiences with other soldiers vs the lesser integration of an officer (ie more person-to-person time vs person-via-paper time).

Well, it's your calll... but if the core of your decision was "officers drive desks" and "officers don't interact with other soldiers".. hoo, mama, have you been fed bad information. That is patently false.

In my opinion, there is no better job in the world than being a Armored Recce Troop Leader - and by a large margin.

Good luck with your new career.

DG

 

[George Wallace]

In my opinion, there is no better job in the world than being a Armored Recce Troop Leader - and by a large margin.

I think you missed his point.   He doesn't want to be a Armd Troop Leader for a year or two max.   He wants to be in the Troop for a 'bit' longer than that.   You have the luxury in the Reserves of being a Recce Troop Ldr for several years, while in the Regs he would be progressing 'ad nauseum' (so to say) through a multitude of Staff Positions and Crses, and be away from the 'Troops' more than perhaps he would like.  He can probably have more fun as a NCM and work up from the adventures of Crew Comd to those of Patrol Comd, then on to being Troop Ldr as a WO, as is often the case.

 

[sguido]

Well, after a good LONG (like 2.5 hours) sit and talk with a former Armor Crewman at CFRC Calgary (he transferred to infantry), I have had my application.... CHANGED!  

I am no longer looking at going officer. I want field experience, I love the outdoors, I love vehicles, and I don't mind the odd bit of physical labor   so I have now applied as an "Armored Soldier (Crewman)"   8)

*snip*

As DG-41 stated, it's your call. But did you also have a long sit and talk with a *serving* officer? Granted, I will never discount the 'war stories' of ex-members, but you want a picture of the life you will be serving in, not whay they served in. If it's not too late, you owe it to yourself to take the time to track down serving members, both NCM and Officer, and find out what the current picture is. For example...you wouldn't want my advice on flight training from the 1980's, right? No longer applicable.

Will you make yourself unpopular at the recruiting office...somebody who doesn't know what they really want? No...if the staff is on the ball, they will recognize a member who is willing to make a commitment one way or the other, and wants to ensure that their career is one they will *not* regret.  You sound enthusiastic in your posts; if that comes out in your meetings, they shouldn't mind you checking your facts closely before locking in...

 

[LordVagabond]

I guess I kinda made a confusing post. The guy I talked to switched out of armor January 05 into infantry, so I am *assuming* that his information is pretty up to snuff  :-X

He seemed squared away, to really know his stuff, so I do think that he was on the level. Still, I also have chatted with many officers and NCMs at CFRC Calgary, so much so that they almost know me on a first name basis 

But yeah, I want more troop time, and then, I can either CFR or continue on in NCM... I shall see what the future holds, but for now, I know I want more field time then desk time. And DG-41, I do appreciate your input, but pretty much every single officer I have talked to, both on here and at CFRC Calgary, have all said that officers spend a lot more of their time doing the actual paperwork than fieldwork, and are less involved in the actual day-to-day grease-and-grime of the troop, while as a Crewman, I'll probably know a few guys really well and most of the troop well, and not have to worry THAT MUCH about paperwork (unless I run over my own foot or something  :blotto: ) AND do the grease-and-grime, in the field, oorah hoorah kinda stuff, according to all the research I have done so far.

So yeah.... crewman it is for me  :warstory: Unless I've been grossly misinformed

 

[Dizzle]

I don't know you at all other than from reading your posts, but I can't help but feel that you are a bit confused.  I am currently an armoured officer undergoing training and I was an infantry reserve soldier for 5 years.  I've seen both sides of the fence now and I can honestly say that if you want to make a career of the armoured corps and you have (or will soon have) a university degree, you should go officer.  Contrary to popular belief, once you're in the regs as an NCM it's not that easy to CFR.  You have to be nominated by your Tp Ldr and approved by the CO.  It's not something you can just apply for.  By choosing the NCM route you are by no means burning any bridges, but you should definitely consider why you went to university if you don't plan on using the degree.  I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter, but I know that after 5 years in the ranks I enjoy being an officer now.

Good luck with your career in either position.

Dizzle

 

[George Wallace]

Dizzle

I'd like to beg to differ and say as an Officer Cadet, you don't know.  There are lots of Armd Crewmen who have gone the Officer Route after a few years in the Trade.  Just because one is a University Graduate, does not make him a Leader.  Many members of the Cbt Arms have University Degrees and are happy to be in the Ranks as NCMs.  Many of them are very talented Leaders, and not Officers.  Many have far different goals in life.

 

[GO!!!]

I don't know you at all other than from reading your posts, but I can't help but feel that you are a bit confused.   I am currently an armoured officer undergoing training and I was an infantry reserve soldier for 5 years.   I've seen both sides of the fence now and I can honestly say that if you want to make a career of the armoured corps and you have (or will soon have) a university degree, you should go officer.   Contrary to popular belief, once you're in the regs as an NCM it's not that easy to CFR.   You have to be nominated by your Tp Ldr and approved by the CO.   It's not something you can just apply for.   By choosing the NCM route you are by no means burning any bridges, but you should definitely consider why you went to university if you don't plan on using the degree.   I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter, but I know that after 5 years in the ranks I enjoy being an officer now.

Good luck with your career in either position.

Dizzle

Dizzle, to second what George said, your experience in the reserves was undoubtedly interesting, but is also not at all indicative of the group dynamic of a regular force unit.

Being a Pte is not all that much fun, and after a year or two of "the outdoors and hard physical labour" you may wish you had gone officer to start with. There are also few intellectual challenges for cbt arms soldiers at the lower levels, which is inversely proportionate to the disciplinary systems set in place should the term "idle hands are the devil's playground" come to fruition for you!

The CFR route does happen, but not often. More common is a release after three years, and DEO into another trade. CFR can take years, and showing up late once and getting on your Warrants' $hit list will destroy your chances.

If you have your degree, go DEO officer. If your recruiter is telling you otherwise, think of it this way. He is a salesman, and you showed up on his doorstep to buy a Car. He talked you into a motorcycle, and now you are about to hop on and drive it away. You did'nt get what you tried to buy, but will still make the same investment (of time).

After you leave the recruiting center, you will never see that recruiter again, for better or for worse, so be assertive, and get what you want. Most armoured crewmen end up as truck drivers. Any armoured officer can order the crewmen under him out of the hatch and brush up on his driving/gunnery skills. If you want to have that choice, go officer.

 

[TCBF]

Interesting.

In 1976, with five years as a militia infantry Pte and NCO under my belt, I walked across the armoury parade square and into the Reg Force recruiting center.  The Captain smiled and said, "I thought I might see you in here someday."  They offered me officer, but I chose OR (Other Ranks, the term replaced by NCM).  They then offered me any trade.  As the Leopard buy had just been announced (!) I picked Crewman/Wpns Tech/Ammo Tech as my three picks.  Crewman it was, and has been since.

My observation over the last twenty-nine years was that although Canada is theoretically a 'classless' society (and I stress 'theoretically'), the CF is not.  Once an OR, you are 'branded' to a minor degree.  Those who successfully get accepted as an officer from the ranks face a 'glass ceiling' imposed by age and lack of education at a 'proper' school (and we all know the one I mean) UNLESS the officers themselves have had a large hand in selecting the OR for officer training.

Having taught Recruits at Cornwallis and St. Jean as well as Officer Cadets on BOTC1 and 2, my advice would be to go officer, even as an Armoured Officer if you must.  You will receive more field time faster on the Coyote, and get to gun and command it on course.  If you end up in Edmonton with the Strats, you may then get to a Tank Sqn as well, and be well positioned for the MGS or whatever takes it's place.

I know this is not your top priority now, but your education and language training will be more reeadily provided as a matter of course as an officer as well.

But, appealing to the 'piss and vinegar' factor in you (I, too, was young, once), I would emphasize that you will get a broader training on the Coyote faster as an officer cadet (that will include gunnery, tactics, and commanding) than you will as an NCM.

Thursday morning, CO's or OC's Parade, then coveralls on, and you can get as greasy doing a monthly on the Coyote as you want.  Once a week in garrison.

Go officer.

Tom

 

[LordVagabond]

Heh.... I love how this place works  I talk to my recruiter and the former armored soldier and they both say that NCMs get more field time and more of the "in the trenches" stuff on exercises and such, and I'm looking for that, so I change my application. AS SOON AS I do that, everyone that I have told about my switch that originally suggested that I go NCM is now saying go officer.

I know that I want a career in the CF. That much is not confusing. I am confused because I am trying to research from those that are there and those that have been there as to what will best suit my personal goals in my career, which is to find the job for me that is challenging and rewarding, but still FUN. If I don't love the job, will it be worth doing? After talking to many people, armored sounded like a good place to be. Armored vehicles, a little maintenance work here and there , get to be part of an important part of the combat arms.... I guess I bought into the bunph about it  8)

I'm not putting armored down, not at all. As I still don't have my final reference in yet, as the guy I asked to provide it is out of town until the 4th of January, I can still change my application again, as it is an electronic application and most importantly it IS NOT SIGNED yet. I'll tell you my goals, and from those that have been out there and done both the officer and/or crewman roles, please respond as unbiased as possible

My goals: I want a career in the CF that gets me out into the field, but involved with vehicles in some fashion. I've always loved armored vehicles, and maybe a mechanized infantry brigade is what I really am looking at, but that is beside the point. I want a job that will keep me fit, allows me pride in my position and regiment, and will see me deployed in a manner close to the bunph, ie "a third of the time." I want the challenge of leading troops, but I also want the whole "new family" aspect as well, because any good combat group gets along well together. Money is NOT a driving factor for me... a challenge, comraderie and some amount of fun once in a while is a career I want.

I am mostly fluent in french, so second language training is not that much of a huge obstacle for me. My education is in the human sciences (aka social sciences), with a major in Anthropology/Archaeology, and a minor in military history, and I will graduate in May with what I am expecting to be a 2.5 to 3.0 GPA (on a 4 point system). My fitness is not massively good yet, but it is quickly going that way. I am an experienced hiker and outdoorsman, with what many have described as a "second nature" navigation sense (I am very fluent in the map and compass language ;D). I have experience in automotive mechanics as I maintain my own car, including replacing parts, engine mechanics, electrical systems and minor repairs (replacing impacted fender on my buddy's car, for example). I am EXTREMELY skilled in computer operation, with a typing speed averaging around 80-120 wpm depending the task. I am not that skilled in computer programming, but I am skilled in hardware installation and troubleshooting (I do not hold an A+ technicians certificate, however).

So there ya have me.... I just want to get out there and have the time of my life in a rewarding career with the Canadian Forces. Have I made a mistake by going armored (first choice) over infantry (second choice)? Or am I on the right track? I haven't been in the military so I don't know. I would appreciate any advice given on top of advice and personal stories already encountered  :warstory:

 

[Journeyman]

I want a job that will keep me fit

Well, that leaves Armour out  ;D

 

[TCBF]

'Well, that leaves Armour out"

- Ha, ha, ha.

Tom 

 

[m410]

Having been both an infantry platoon commander and armoured recce troop leader (reserve in both cases) I can say that both jobs are immensely enjoyable.  And platoon/troop leaders don't have nearly the amount of paperwork that more senior positions have.  Counting infantry and armoured school training as well as the 2 years you'll have in command you will have 3+ years of the best (non-operational) field time the CF has to offer.  After that you'll have a lot of desk work with occasional bouts of field time.

As an NCM you will have more consistent experience, as most (but not all) of your time will be in a platoon or troop but any given year won't be as good as what the junior officer gets in his glorious beginning.  3-4 years vs. 15+ years... is it better to burn out than fade away?

Ultimately I say the decision between NCM and officer (for the educated applicant, who has a choice) devolves on temperment.  Some people are naturally suited for NCM in a way that has nothing to do with education.  A certain proportion of well-educated senior NCOs does a lot for the institution.  For me, I know I'd go insane as an NCM, since I'd be stuck with all the decisions, including numerous mistakes, of the officers and NCOs above me.  I'd rather be in a situation where I can make the mistakes, and someone else goes insane.

For the mechanically inclined, armoured crewman is probably a fun job.  Anyone who joins the regular force infantry as an NCM has either been tricked or is in for a lifetime of pain.  Of course, some people pay good money for that, so why not instead get paid to do it?