Urban vs Rural recruits. Do similar patterns exist in Canada?

[ArmyRick]

Damn Canadian Bears! Seriously, has any even seen one of these free loaders at least try and join up at a recruiting center? I mean they have no problem picking through our garbage or stealing our game when we hunt or showing up in the arctic for splendid photo ops.

But I have yet to see a single bear (Black, grizzly or polar) enroll in the CF and get over and start fighting. Really makes you think whats going on in the bear community?


I know its ridicolous but its about as usefull as the other statistical garbage being thrown around.

 

[Infanteer]

???

 

[dimsum]

What might be a more interesting question is who fights and Lives?  This perhaps has more to do with reserve units than reg force, but I'd like to see the ratio of who volunteers for service (and to go to Afghanistan) between the rural/urban and between the different ethnic groups.

That would be a good one for an article, as people back home (I'm a visible minority and a 2nd-generation Canadian) generally first ask "are there many XYZ-Canadians serving there?"  Since the MSM doesn't seem to be doing it, perhaps it's something that PAO could tackle?

 

[mariomike]

More on the topic today:
http://twice-immigrant.livejournal.com/17398.html

 

[pbi]

This whole thing makes me uncomfortable.

My fear is that, no matter how worthy the intent of the investigators, the result will do no good. In fact, it will play into the hands of the stereotype-mongers we have in the chattering classes and literati who will exploit (and distort...) the information to support their POV that only "dumb, redneck hicks" and "trailer trash" join the Army voluntarily, and, hey--who cares about them, anyway?

After all, 80% of us Canadians are the cool ones who live in cities, right? Serves those  small town losers right for being hicks in the first place-why don't they smarten up and move to the city?

To me, there is a hidden implication here that, somehow, being from a smaller place means that recruits are less aware, less well educated, and not quite as "with it" as their peers from cities. I have never seen any proof that urban youth are in any way superior to people from towns of 60,000, or 20,000, or 5,000.

This can be readily translated into the insulting thinking that I parodied above.Because, after all, why would a "normal" Canadian want to be a soldier? I mean, all that patrotism, and discipline...and taking a stand about things...yucky!=so un-Canadian!


But how will this investigation reflect the fact that the military is far more diverse than it was 20 years ago? How will it address that there are thousands of very urban and very diverse Canadian soldiers-called Reservists-who also serve, and among whom many have served in Afgh, and some have died? If I'm not mistaken, the great majority of Res units in Canada are located in cities of 100,000 or more, which I believe is the population criteria for an urban centre.

And, anyway, are we talking about "the military" as a whole here, or about those who enlist in the Army, specifically in the Cbt Arms where the fatalities have overwhelmingly been taken?

Cheers

 

[mariomike]

Urban / Rural divide: Canada:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tvontario/5146775642/

Studies on the topic from the U.S.:
http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=%22rural+america%22+iraq+

New York Times:
"The Rural War:  Which American communities pay the highest price for the war in Iraq? A look at the demographics of soldiers killed reveals that Iraq is not the war of any one race or region. Rather, it is rural America's war.":
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/opinion/20bishop.html

University of New Hampshire:
"War Death Rate Higher Among Soldiers From Rural Areas":
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/nov/as09war.cfm?type=n

"Since the beginning of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, soldiers from rural communities have made up a disproportionate share of the casualties, as young men and women seek opportunities in the military they don't find at home.":
http://www.dailyyonder.com/iraq-war-deaths-concentrated-rural-america

 

[pbi]

I was wrong on my  criteria for "urban" centre. Currently, Statistics Canada defines "urban" as:

Part B – Detailed Definition

An urban area has a minimum population concentration of 1,000 persons and a population density of at least 400 persons per square kilometre, based on the current census population count. All territory outside urban areas is classified as rural. Taken together, urban and rural areas cover all of Canada.

For example, a town of 5,000 persons, or a town that has 500 pers living in a sq km (relatively easy to find) is not "rural".
Based on this, I would suggest that very few of our soldiers, and thus even fewer of our casualties, come from "rural" areas as Canada defines them. There may be some "city-centricism" going on here: the mentality that says that if it isn't a big metropolitan city it's Hicksville.

The posts you provided are interesting, but we might want to be careful about drawing direct parallels to US demographics. For example, the UNH piece suggests that "lower education" is a prime motivator in young rural Americans joining the military.  Is this true of Canadian recruits? And what does "lower education" mean here? Not finished high school? Didn't get good grades? Didn't go on to post secondary? My impression has always been, especially in the last few years, that the education level amongst Canadian Regular Force Combat Arms NCMs was higher than that for their US Army peers, (but I certainly stand to be corrected on this one.) I have sat on a few NCM selection and promotion boards at the national level, and I was struck by the number of MCpls/Cpls with community college diplomas and in some cases partial or complete degrees, which appeared to have been obtained before entry.  I believe it is also true that our soldiers are generally about 2-5 years older in rank than their US peers, which might mean more time to get that education. On the other hand, the US Army was offering educational incentives to its NCMs long before we started to take it seriously, so perhaps I'm wrong.

Second, the issue of "low income" (shorthand for "poverty"?). Again, my impression is that our military, including the RegF CbtA, is overwhelmingly middle class, with some lower middle class. I do agree that there was a time when the Army was a refuge for the poor and poorly educated in Canada  (keeping in mind that some of those people became excellent soldiers...), but I am having a hard time squaring that with what I have seen and experienced over the last few years.

I'm happy for currently serving folks to challenge me on this.
Cheers

DJB

 

[Infanteer]

I agree that the qualification of 1000 people for a urban area probably makes for skewed statistics.  I've always held about 100,000 to be the benchmark divide between urban and rural areas - this is when you get a Costco!

I'm from a town of 10,000 people and I don't consider it at all to be an urban area.

 

[mariomike]

I've always held about 100,000 to be the benchmark divide between urban and rural areas - this is when you get a Costco!

It also gets you on the target list:
"In 1938 over 22 million Germans lived in 58 towns of over 100,000 inhabitants, which, with modern equipment, should be easy to find and hit.":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=t-wh0-dtWi0C&pg=PA56&dq=%2258+towns%22+easy+to+hit&hl=en&ei=42XgTOHWNoTdnAfqytTCDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%2258%20towns%22%20easy%20to%20hit&f=false

 

[Greymatters]

The real impact of this article that I see is the relation between the origniating points of soldiers and post-service resources like VAC offices and medical staff.

If most of those soldiers came from small towns and returned to small towns after their service (but no statistics to prove that), it's more difficult for them to access VAC and other offices that tend to be located in metropolitan downtown areas.

 

[Gronk]

The terms rural and urban realy are relative. Here in the Yukon, we have a pop. of approx. 33k, 28k of which live here in the capital Whitehorse. In the communities, Whitehorse is "the big city" but, you're never more than a 5 min. walk away from the bush and there's all kinds of wildlife walking around.

 

[George Wallace]

;D

There's wildlife in Toronto as well.  Perhaps not the same kind, but wildlife just the same.

 

[GrimRX]

;D

There's wildlife in Toronto as well.  Perhaps not the same kind, but wildlife just the same.

Guess it depends wheither you'd wanna be mauled by a bear or by a cougar.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I agree that the qualification of 1000 people for a urban area probably makes for skewed statistics.  I've always held about 100,000 to be the benchmark divide between urban and rural areas - this is when you get a Costco!

I'm from a town of 10,000 people and I don't consider it at all to be an urban area.

Infanteer: Does this mean that we have one province without any urban area? P.E.I.?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Large portions of the Canadian Forces are from rural Canada.  This is no surprise as the CF provides good jobs and a way for rural Canadians to get a higher education as well as a career with good pay and benefits  I would say another reason for the disproportionate representation is that the lifestyle of a Canadian Forces member is far easier to relate with rural society then urban society.  I mean realistically, if your from a place like Toronto, is their really a strong appeal to enroll in the CF?  Where you will move to small towns, and live a humble but sometimes hard lifestyle.  I mean are the Cbt Arms really all that appealing to the average city slicker?  I would think not.  Soldiering attracts a certain type of individual and IMO it seems only right that this lifestyle is more attractive to rural Canadians.

 

[George Wallace]

Large portions of the Canadian Forces are from rural Canada.  This is no surprise as the CF provides good jobs and a way for rural Canadians to get a higher education as well as a career with good pay and benefits  I would say another reason for the disproportionate representation is that the lifestyle of a Canadian Forces member is far easier to relate with rural society then urban society.  I mean realistically, if your from a place like Toronto, is their really a strong appeal to enroll in the CF?  Where you will move to small towns, and live a humble but sometimes hard lifestyle.  I mean are the Cbt Arms really all that appealing to the average city slicker?  I would think not.  Soldiering attracts a certain type of individual and IMO it seems only right that this lifestyle is more attractive to rural Canadians.

I am sure that if you polled the respondents to this thread, the majority of them are not from rural areas, but metropolitan areas, perhaps not as large as Toronto, but still not 'rural'.  You would also be quite surprised as to the number of CF members who are from Toronto.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Lets do the math George.

GTA: 5 millions
Canada: 33 millions

When we find that 15% of CF members come from Toronto, then they will have met their "fair share". 

I know many members from Toronto, but I have never run into a CF unit (other than Toronto based reserve units)  that had anywhere near that 15% of Torontonians.

I am pretty sure the same would proportionally hold  true for Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City if we did the calc.

As for the rest, I get a feeling from the thread above that most of us consider the smaller canadian towns to fall in the rural category by their nature and lifestyle. 

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm going to ask a question that needs to be asked. If it offends anyone, that's too bad.

Does it really goddamned matter where our soldiers are from? This ridiculous assertions that the urban areas aren't doing their "fair share" is a distraction, pure and simple. I've served with soldiers from all over Canada - soldiers from Vancouver to Fogo Island, Newfoundland.

We have more pressing issues to deal with.

 

[mariomike]

I am sure that if you polled the respondents to this thread, the majority of them are not from rural areas, but metropolitan areas, perhaps not as large as Toronto, but still not 'rural'.  You would also be quite surprised as to the number of CF members who are from Toronto.

For what it is worth to the topic, Statistics Canada reports that only 20 per cent of Canadians are "rural":
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo62a-eng.htm

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am with Jim on that one.