Updated Army Service Dress project

[Eye In The Sky]

I’ve had a guy get extras from an NCO for having a non regimental hoodie on during a run. The hoodies at the kit shop run 70 bucks…

That’s the sort of shit that needs to be hammered hard right there.

 

[Edward Campbell]

After working with the RCAF on multiple occasions, that tracks.

Uniformity, dress, drill, general military bearing are laissez-faire and often times it's a feat to see RCAF folks wearing pants let alone have a proper set of polished footwear or pressed uniform; it's not a cultural or operational priority for those folks because "make plane fly, keep plane flying, repair plane so it can fly again, repeat" is the priority.

Now the Army on the other hand, a lot of our priorities are instilling adherence to order, discipline, and maintenance of espirit de corps. There is a practical application to Drill and Ceremonial for us because it is a simple and effective tool to condition troops to responding to authority, loud commands, and attention to detail. That bleeds into all aspects of regimental life, including what to wear and how to dress.

A kit list, for example, is how you prevent Pte. Bloggins from dying of hypothermia because they didn't want to bring a sleeping bag. Do I think MCpl/Sgt Bloggins doesn't know what to bring on an ex? Fuck no. It does, however, help keep everyone accountable to the team and provides an example to everyone down the line on what is acceptable and needed in the field.

The mentality I described above is why everyone is expected to have regimental collar dogs and badges on their DEU and the consequences are varied from a jacking, to extra duties, to being viewed as a "troublemaker" within Bn lines.

Where things go sideways is how often folks are coerced into having to pay for that uniformity. It also doesn't help that the supply system doesn't necessarily prioritize those items as much as the RSM does. So it becomes the "Do I fight this, or do I just conform to no knock the boat?" That conundrum shifts from one side to the other with time, rank, and experience.

Personally, I pay my Corps stupidity tax every 2 or so years to get better quality accouterments than the poor quality ones I see coming through clothing stores. Why? Well you see this guy... let's call him the Adjt.... he controls the duty roster... and I like having my weekends off...

Where the consequences of not conforming to regimental norms are worse than paying the 60 bucks....

I've mentioned this before, and it was 60+ years ago, so more than just a grain of salt, please, but in the 1950s and '60s the RCCS was notorious in the Army for chickensh!t, we made the Guards look like a holiday camp, and, odd as it may seem, the chickensh!t was most pronounced in the technical parts of the Corps. I was charged (unrecorded caution) because the backs of my bely 'keepers' were not adequately polished; it was routine to have a corporal or sergeant inspect the back of one's belt buckle and cap badge and to check the polish - yes polish - on the soles (instep) of one's boots. But we were also told, in the first day or two of training, to expect that because out Troop Commander, a staff sergeant, explained, we would, too soon after training, be on our own, doing our work miles and miles from a technical NCO, even a lance jack, so he and the Corps leadership had to KNOW that we would do the right thing, the right way at the right time, every time, on our own, without supervision. The constant chickensh!t was there to install a habit of "attention to detail."

 

[Halifax Tar]

Also, I've been hearing from younger RCAF officers lately that they must buy the bullion thread beret and wedge cap badges.

I'm 99% sure that's not the case and the cloth one from Clothing Stores is fine.

Log Os and CPO1/CWOs already have a different quality cap badge. I think if remember correctly the paper clips, err I mean chain links are metal.

Us peasants get to wear some silkscreened piece of crap, that is slightly filled out with cotton.

Yeah... it's part of the reason the Mercury Shop gets a lot of money from us Jimmy folks in Kingston. Good luck going to clothing stores to draw buttons, collar dogs, cap badges.... almost like they can't keep pace with the 3000 folks rotation through the home of Sigs every year.

I am not sure what this had to do with the Log NCM cap badge...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Log Os and CPO1/CWOs already have a different quality cap badge. I think if remember correctly the paper clips, err I mean chain links are metal.

Us peasants get to wear some silkscreened piece of crap, that is slightly filled out with cotton.



I am not sure what this had to do with the Log NCM cap badge...

My mistake, should have clarified my comment.

The piss poor quality of the items given by clothing stores and their scant availability, seem to an "across the CAF" issue; one that perpetuates the "go to the kit shop, pay your toll, STFU" culture that has become the norm.

Hard to tell if it's a bug or a feature.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My mistake, should have clarified my comment.

The piss poor quality of the items given by clothing stores and their scant availability, seem to an "across the CAF" issue; one that perpetuates the "go to the kit shop, pay your toll, STFU" culture that has become the norm.

Hard to tell if it's a bug or a feature.

Gotcha, and in agreement.

I think it's a bug that's become a feature, perhaps.

 

[dimsum]

Hard to tell if it's a bug or a feature.

With the prices you guys are quoting? Definitely a feature (for the owner of said kit shop).

 

[Maxman1]

I am not sure what this had to do with the Log NCM cap badge...

"The point is I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time..."

 

[dapaterson]

"The point is I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time..."

Onions are on backorder.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Onions are on backorder.

At least until the Shallot Interim Task Project (ShIT Program) comes into effect circa 2026

 

[dapaterson]

At least until the Shallot Interim Task Project (ShIT Program) comes into effect circa 2026

Sorry, we've had to redo the cashlines.

The project backlog will remain full of ShIT for the foreseeable future.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I will say that my US Army colleagues are rocking their WW2 dress uniforms - pretty sure that their current recruiting pool gets the Band of Brothers vibe without even knowing it.

I think we could pick up our game dress uniform-wise without derailing ATGMs? Or not. Our bad dress uniforms are, by now, rather traditional and are therefore a hill to die on.

 

[Eaglelord17]

It doesn't matter what type of dress uniform we adopt when its a bunch of pudgy, scruffy looking, long haired, scraggly bearded troops wearing it. No matter how nice the cut is, we will look like a bunch of bags when grouped together, it only takes one to make the collective look terrible.

 

[Furniture]

My mistake, should have clarified my comment.

The piss poor quality of the items given by clothing stores and their scant availability, seem to an "across the CAF" issue; one that perpetuates the "go to the kit shop, pay your toll, STFU" culture that has become the norm.

Hard to tell if it's a bug or a feature.

Int cap badges are great, much nicer than the old Seagull one I wore before we switched branches.

 

[MJP]

It doesn't matter what type of dress uniform we adopt when its a bunch of pudgy, scruffy looking, long haired, scraggly bearded troops wearing it. No matter how nice the cut is, we will look like a bunch of bags when grouped together, it only takes one to make the collective look terrible.

Do looks hamper effectiveness?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Do looks hamper effectiveness?

They potentially can.

Being fat hampers effectiveness. Having long nails hampers effectiveness. Having unnatural hair colours hampers effectiveness. Having beards hampers effectiveness. Having long hair hampers effectiveness. Looking unprofessional has a affect on others attitudes towards you and the organization you represent.

Some things have more of a effect than others, but to directly answer your question looks can hamper effectiveness. In the context of a dress uniform it most certainly does as the whole point is to project a professional image.

 

[MJP]

They potentially can.

Being fat hampers effectiveness. Having long nails hampers effectiveness. Having unnatural hair colours hampers effectiveness. Having beards hampers effectiveness. Having long hair hampers effectiveness. Looking unprofessional has a affect on others attitudes towards you and the organization you represent.

Some things have more of a effect than others, but to directly answer your question looks can hamper effectiveness. In the context of a dress uniform it most certainly does as the whole point is to project a professional image.

In what way does how a person looks effect how good they are at their job? You are the one asserting that is the case but are not giving anything to support your case. You just sound like you don't like the dress changes.

Does coloured hair makes one weaker? Do they suddenly lose mental capacity? Are people with beards not smart? Please expand on how looks effect one's effectiveness at their job? All you have pointed out is some may have a bad opinion but that isn't a measure of effectiveness to gauge how competent someone is at their job. That is just saying other people think something


I will give you one point for kinda almost saying fitness matters. It is likely the one point we agree on that is probably lacking in some way. To what degree I don't know as that is just my opinion based on observation. I will add that there have been few times in my career where it mattered that fitness ever held us back from completing something so it probably isn't the boogeyman in the closet either.

 

[Eaglelord17]

In what way does how a person looks effect how good they are at their job? You are the one asserting that is the case but are not giving anything to support your case. You just sound like you don't like the dress changes.

Does coloured hair makes one weaker? Do they suddenly lose mental capacity? Are people with beards not smart? Please expand on how looks effect one's effectiveness at their job? All you have pointed out is some may have a bad opinion but that isn't a measure of effectiveness to gauge how competent someone is at their job. That is just saying other people think something


I will give you one point for kinda almost saying fitness matters. It is likely the one point we agree on that is probably lacking in some way. To what degree I don't know as that is just my opinion based on observation. I will add that there have been few times in my career where it matter that fitness ever held us back from completing something so it probably isn't the boogeyman in the closet either.

Coloured hair can help give away your position, making it more possible to be observed by a enemy. Coloured hair also alters how people view you which can be a negative thing depending on who it is your engaging with. Beards reduce effectiveness of CBRN and firefighting equipment. Sometimes people having a negative opinion of someone is reducing the effectiveness of the person.

For example if your job is to recruit, having a slovenly unprofessional appearance is going to reduce your effectiveness. If your job is to liaise with different organizations, countries, militaries, etc. Having a unprofessional appearance is reducing your effectiveness.

Appearance matters, how much is situation dependent. As I said, it can have a effect, that doesn't mean always having a effect.

Fitness is a huge thing we are lacking in more than a few troops. Not being concerned about it in peacetime gets people killed in wartime. The less fit people are the more likely they are to be injured as well.

I don't like the dress reg changes, our previous dress regs (excluding the religious exemption portions and the sexist female portions) were written in blood over two world wars. They were lessons learned which we have thrown out in the name of fashion.

 

[Furniture]

I don't like the dress reg changes, our previous dress regs (excluding the religious exemption portions and the sexist female portions) were written in blood over two world wars. They were lessons learned which we have thrown out in the name of fashion.

Except that the new rules wouldn't apply in a wartime situation. Given that I don't have a suit, gloves, or boots at home, the fact I'm not clean shaven at all times isn't going to be what kills me if we have a sudden CBRN attack. I don't need to shave every day to "practice" shaving in the event I need to do it in a CBRN threat environment. Same goes for nail polish, ear rings, purple hair, etc...

What we threw out were the fashion sensibilities of the 1950s... Next up, we can drop the no flip flops in the mess rule, as my OluKai flip flops are no more "shower sandals" than someone's $20 heel strap sandals.

I suspect there will be some form of standards come out regarding facial hair and hair grooming, as there are a lot of scruffy looking people, but I doubt we will ever go back to the 1950s version of dress regulations we had before.

 

[MJP]

.

 

[MJP]

Coloured hair can help give away your position, making it more possible to be observed by a enemy. Coloured hair also alters how people view you which can be a negative thing depending on who it is your engaging with. Beards reduce effectiveness of CBRN and firefighting equipment. Sometimes people having a negative opinion of someone is reducing the effectiveness of the person.

For example if your job is to recruit, having a slovenly unprofessional appearance is going to reduce your effectiveness. If your job is to liaise with different organizations, countries, militaries, etc. Having a unprofessional appearance is reducing your effectiveness.

Appearance matters, how much is situation dependent. As I said, it can have a effect, that doesn't mean always having a effect.

Fitness is a huge thing we are lacking in more than a few troops. Not being concerned about it in peacetime gets people killed in wartime. The less fit people are the more likely they are to be injured as well.

I don't like the dress reg changes, our previous dress regs (excluding the religious exemption portions and the sexist female portions) were written in blood over two world wars. They were lessons learned which we have thrown out in the name of fashion.

So a few things that as @Furniture pointed out (as have I earlier in the thread) that don't really apply and a few more of someone else's perception of an individual. Nothing substantial that makes someone ineffective? Hmmp and here I thought it was the end of the free world....

What sort of normal soldiering is affected by the current dress standards that can't be addressed by good training, effective training and leadership?

Are folks that fall outside of your perceived ideals therefore shitty soldiers? Did long hair somehow impart a weakness that recent recent enemies can exploit? What exactly is the issue. Please articulate beyond some mystical soldier barrier that seems to be stuck in the olden days.

CBRN or other operational environment that needs adherence can be ordered.... So I may be missing how long hair makes army folks shitty other than hurting some people's feelings.


Behind the fact that it is a dress uniform which isn't even close to being operational

Just in case you missed it I have my own opinions

Is there some metric that highlights that "lowered" dress somehow make a military less efficient? Personally I think people look silly in uniform with weird hair and the like but I can also realize that my opinion doesn't matter nor does their appearance affect their ability to do their role.

I don't like the dress reg changes, our previous dress regs (excluding the religious exemption portions and the sexist female portions) were written in blood over two world wars. They were lessons learned which we have thrown out in the name of fashion.