Updated Army Service Dress project

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I've had a problem with that CANFORGEN right from the start. As I've indicated above, the "Army" combat is a universal order of dress in military forces. There is nothing wrong with anyone wearing it, whatever element they are from. If your Army or RCAF unit wants you to wear it, I say go ahead.

But there is a rule in place and it's not up to individual units to fiddle around with its application - we just have to abide by it while it exists.

Only a few months after the rule was issued, it was broken, in public, writ large. We had the military send people into Quebec's Old Age facilities as part of the pandemic response: Every single medical officer was wearing CADPAT, yet they were all RCN (Their slip ons all had Elliot's eyes). I don't think going into an old age home downtown Montreal qualifies as an "operational requirement" for CADPAT over NCD's.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Forcing people to buy pins and buttons and pt is alive and well.

All it takes is someone to say no and a willingness to withstand the storm through to completion.

 

[dimsum]

Forcing people to buy pins and buttons and pt is alive and well.

I'm not well-versed in the financial bits here, but those units have ceremonial uniforms, right? Which the unit pays for?

If so, how come they can use unit funds to pay for those (like bands, whatever) but not buttons, pins, and PT gear, if it is mandatory?

Only a few months after the rule was issued, it was broken, in public, writ large. We had the military send people into Quebec's Old Age facilities as part of the pandemic response: Every single medical officer was wearing CADPAT, yet they were all RCN (Their slip ons all had Elliot's eyes). I don't think going into an old age home downtown Montreal qualifies as an "operational requirement" for CADPAT over NCD's.

Maybe 2 Div didn't spell out "CADPAT or NCDs" in the order, and people just went with it...?

 

[markppcli]

I'm not well-versed in the financial bits here, but those units have ceremonial uniforms, right? Which the unit pays for?

If so, how come they can use unit funds to pay for those (like bands, whatever) but not buttons, pins, and PT gear, if it is mandatory?

Great question, I do t have an answer for you beyond “it’s always been this way.” I don’t know if it still happens but for a long time PPCLI battle school candidates would be expected to spend 100-130 on accoutrements so they could be regimental on parade.

 

[ArmyRick]

Great question, I do t have an answer for you beyond “it’s always been this way.” I don’t know if it still happens but for a long time PPCLI battle school candidates would be expected to spend 100-130 on accoutrements so they could be regimental on parade.

Yup. Has been forever that way. 90s when I graduated Patricia battle school we had to fork over $50 for our stuff. I was told by Ed Larabie (Retired WO or MWO, can't be sure. @OldSolduer ?) our CQ in battalion, told us it was due to the ancestry of being a private raised regiment by Hammy Gault.

 

[MJP]

Yup. Has been forever that way. 90s when I graduated Patricia battle school we had to fork over $50 for our stuff. I was told by Ed Larabie (Retired WO or MWO, can't be sure. @OldSolduer ?) our CQ in battalion, told us it was due to the ancestry of being a private raised regiment by Hammy Gault.

Great question, I do t have an answer for you beyond “it’s always been this way.” I don’t know if it still happens but for a long time PPCLI battle school candidates would be expected to spend 100-130 on accoutrements so they could be regimental on parade.

If you are talking about buying PT gear and Patricia brass DEU stuff (collar dogs, shoulder titles, and cap badge) it is because that material is not publicly funded so one has to buy it using personal or non-public funds. There was stuff publicly avail but can't recall if it was only the cap badge or not. The CA was the worst for just expecting ppl to shell out money to be part of the team.

Recently though a whole bunch of stuff (last 5ish year) went from being unit/mbr NPF to public but can't recall the extent of what it was

 

[ArmyRick]

If you are talking about buying PT gear and Patricia brass DEU stuff (collar dogs, shoulder titles, and cap badge) it is because that material is not publicly funded so one has to buy it using personal or non-public funds. There was stuff publicly avail but can't recall if it was only the cap badge or not. The CA was the worst for just expecting ppl to shell out money to be part of the team.

Recently though a whole bunch of stuff (last 5ish year) went from being unit/mbr NPF to public but can't recall the extent of what it was

I will say this. Every self respecting Patricia buys their DEU stuff especially your cap badge. The CAF issued PPCLI cap badge is garbage and breaks easy.

 

[dimsum]

If you are talking about buying PT gear and Patricia brass DEU stuff (collar dogs, shoulder titles, and cap badge) it is because that material is not publicly funded so one has to buy it using personal or non-public funds. There was stuff publicly avail but can't recall if it was only the cap badge or not. The CA was the worst for just expecting ppl to shell out money to be part of the team.

Recently though a whole bunch of stuff (last 5ish year) went from being unit/mbr NPF to public but can't recall the extent of what it was

So...what happens if someone just doesn't buy the stuff?

Not to the same level, but RCAF sqns have their own unit nametags (for flight suits), patches, etc that you buy. BUT, you do not need to wear them. I've known a couple of people who purposely don't, because they're not issued. I don't think anyone has ever asked them to do so, and they would pull out the regulations if anyone did.

The only things mandatory on a flight suit are the issued nametag (kind of like the CADPAT one but in a different shape), wings, and ranks, all of which are provided by Supply.

 

[MJP]

I will say this. Every self respecting Patricia buys their DEU stuff especially your cap badge. The CAF issued PPCLI cap badge is garbage and breaks easy.

Meh, I don't think dropping a few hundo on Regt gear creates internal respect. I would rather a person decide if an organization deserves their respect, not force them to buy a bunch of gear to force it in some weird way.

Note, I bought all my stuff anyway (had most of it from my time as army cadet anyway)

So...what happens if someone just doesn't buy the stuff?

Not to the same level, but RCAF sqns have their own unit nametags (for flight suits), patches, etc that you buy. BUT, you do not need to wear them. I've known a couple of people who purposely don't, because they're not issued. I don't think anyone has ever asked them to do so, and they would pull out the regulations if anyone did.

The only things mandatory on a flight suit are the issued nametag (kind of like the CADPAT one but in a different shape), wings, and ranks, all of which are provided by Supply.

Most ppl just acquiesce, hard to fight it as Pte at battleschool/DP1 or when newly posted in to Bn. Known a few holdouts and while some dinos were butthurt, most ppl just judged them by how they did their job which is the way it is supposed to be IMHO

Most Regts also have a Regt fund which is a monthly stipend (increasing with rank) that folks "volunteer" to pay that gets forced on folks. In the PPCLI you would get stuff as you got promoted (eg: your sash when promoted to Sgt). The Regt does do good stuff with the funds so I don't totally begrudge it, it is just another forced "voluntary" tax the CA likes to impose.

My distaste for it stems from when I got promoted to Sgt it was pointed out that I had been paying Pte rates since joining the Regt. I was happy paying that rate and buying my own sash but the QMSI at the time went behind my back and had the clerks adjust my rate and take off the backpay. If I knew what I knew now,I likely would have pushed the issue but in true Patricia fashion I just shrugged and went along meekly with the machine.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

So...what happens if someone just doesn't buy the stuff?

Not to the same level, but RCAF sqns have their own unit nametags (for flight suits), patches, etc that you buy. BUT, you do not need to wear them. I've known a couple of people who purposely don't, because they're not issued. I don't think anyone has ever asked them to do so, and they would pull out the regulations if anyone did.

The only things mandatory on a flight suit are the issued nametag (kind of like the CADPAT one but in a different shape), wings, and ranks, all of which are provided by Supply.

After working with the RCAF on multiple occasions, that tracks.

Uniformity, dress, drill, general military bearing are laissez-faire and often times it's a feat to see RCAF folks wearing pants let alone have a proper set of polished footwear or pressed uniform; it's not a cultural or operational priority for those folks because "make plane fly, keep plane flying, repair plane so it can fly again, repeat" is the priority.

Now the Army on the other hand, a lot of our priorities are instilling adherence to order, discipline, and maintenance of espirit de corps. There is a practical application to Drill and Ceremonial for us because it is a simple and effective tool to condition troops to responding to authority, loud commands, and attention to detail. That bleeds into all aspects of regimental life, including what to wear and how to dress.

A kit list, for example, is how you prevent Pte. Bloggins from dying of hypothermia because they didn't want to bring a sleeping bag. Do I think MCpl/Sgt Bloggins doesn't know what to bring on an ex? Fuck no. It does, however, help keep everyone accountable to the team and provides an example to everyone down the line on what is acceptable and needed in the field.

The mentality I described above is why everyone is expected to have regimental collar dogs and badges on their DEU and the consequences are varied from a jacking, to extra duties, to being viewed as a "troublemaker" within Bn lines.

Where things go sideways is how often folks are coerced into having to pay for that uniformity. It also doesn't help that the supply system doesn't necessarily prioritize those items as much as the RSM does. So it becomes the "Do I fight this, or do I just conform to no knock the boat?" That conundrum shifts from one side to the other with time, rank, and experience.

Personally, I pay my Corps stupidity tax every 2 or so years to get better quality accouterments than the poor quality ones I see coming through clothing stores. Why? Well you see this guy... let's call him the Adjt.... he controls the duty roster... and I like having my weekends off...

Where the consequences of not conforming to regimental norms are worse than paying the 60 bucks....

 

[dimsum]

Uniformity, dress, drill, general military bearing are laissez-faire and often times it's a feat to see RCAF folks wearing pants let alone have a proper set of polished footwear or pressed uniform; it's not a cultural or operational priority for those folks because "make plane fly, keep plane flying, repair plane so it can fly again, repeat" is the priority.

Now the Army on the other hand, a lot of our priorities are instilling adherence to order, discipline, and maintenance of espirit de corps. There is a practical application to Drill and Ceremonial for us because it is a simple and effective tool to condition troops to responding to authority, loud commands, and attention to detail. That bleeds into all aspects of regimental life, including what to wear and how to dress.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The Army doesn't pay a cent for any of its uniforms - nor does any other organization.

ADM Mat manages that through the national procurement budget; clothing is from the NP Common account.

Growing more types of uniforms means you'll need more folks in procurement, managing more styles / more contracts. The CADPAT convergence for CA/RCAF means less staff required to sustain. You want to divorce the two? Fine. You'll need more procurement folks for clothing.

Ok. Curious as to if this applied to the original CADPAT rain gear the Air Force came out with (CEMS project?) that the army wasn’t entitled to because the army didn’t buy into it until later, when the current rain gear (CCR - converged CASPAT rain gear…something like that) was procured as a combined item for bother army/air.

This is what was explained to me by a Clothing Stores Supr a few years ago, but thanks for clarifying.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I will say this. Every self respecting Patricia buys their DEU stuff especially your cap badge. The CAF issued PPCLI cap badge is garbage and breaks easy.

LOG NCM Cap badge enters the chat

 

[dimsum]

LOG NCM Cap badge enters the chat

Also, I've been hearing from younger RCAF officers lately that they must buy the bullion thread beret and wedge cap badges.

I'm 99% sure that's not the case and the cloth one from Clothing Stores is fine.

 

[dapaterson]

Ok. Curious as to if this applied to the original CADPAT rain gear the Air Force came out with (CEMS project?) that the army wasn’t entitled to because the army didn’t buy into it until later, when the current rain gear (CCR - converged CASPAT rain gear…something like that) was procured as a combined item for bother army/air.

This is what was explained to me by a Clothing Stores Supr a few years ago, but thanks for clarifying.

The apportionments within NP are another issue...

 

[markppcli]

I will say this. Every self respecting Patricia buys their DEU stuff especially your cap badge. The CAF issued PPCLI cap badge is garbage and breaks easy.

Maybe 7-10 years ago. The plastic, free cap badges are increasingly commonly worn. There’s a few reasons:
1. There was an issue sourcing cap badges for a while with a failed contract so that’s all that was available
2. The death of regimental battle schools. These guys are lucky if Meaford even lets them get a cap badge. I’ve had troops tell me they were ordered to eat after the candidates going to the RCR, which I later confirmed with some instructors there.
3. NCOs frankly are union lines to give a new Private shit for having the “wrong” cap badge when it’s issued.

So...what happens if someone just doesn't buy the stuff?

Not to the same level, but RCAF sqns have their own unit nametags (for flight suits), patches, etc that you buy. BUT, you do not need to wear them. I've known a couple of people who purposely don't, because they're not issued. I don't think anyone has ever asked them to do so, and they would pull out the regulations if anyone did.

The only things mandatory on a flight suit are the issued nametag (kind of like the CADPAT one but in a different shape), wings, and ranks, all of which are provided by Supply.

I’ve had a guy get extras from an NCO for having a non regimental hoodie on during a run. The hoodies at the kit shop run 70 bucks…

 

[rmc_wannabe]

LOG NCM Cap badge enters the chat

Yeah... it's part of the reason the Mercury Shop gets a lot of money from us Jimmy folks in Kingston. Good luck going to clothing stores to draw buttons, collar dogs, cap badges.... almost like they can't keep pace with the 3000 folks rotation through the home of Sigs every year.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yup. Has been forever that way. 90s when I graduated Patricia battle school we had to fork over $50 for our stuff. I was told by Ed Larabie (Retired WO or MWO, can't be sure. @OldSolduer ?) our CQ in battalion, told us it was due to the ancestry of being a private raised regiment by Hammy Gault.

The system does issue accoutrements BUT they IMO are not of good quality. Therefore the purchase of accoutrements was mandatory at one time, just like officers have had to but their own swords.

 

[dapaterson]

2. The death of regimental battle schools. These guys are lucky if Meaford even lets them get a cap badge. I’ve had troops tell me they were ordered to eat after the candidates going to the RCR, which I later confirmed with some instructors there.

Those "instructors" should be court martialed and punted from the CAF.

 

[markppcli]

Those "instructors" should be court martialed and punted from the CAF.

I don’t disagree