Uninformed chatter on the wars in the Sandbox....

[Infanteer]

blahblahblah

Eugene, is that you?

 

[Legless_Marine]

Legless_Marine,
I believe you are here only as a troll. 
You post lengthy inflammatory posts

My posts are not intended to  be inflammatory, although it is clear that my thoughts diverge from the prevalent sentiments here.    I did not come here to "Troll", but obviously, trolling is the in the beholders eyes, and will inevitably be invoked by people who don't like other's posts, regardless of the reason.  Sadly, I find that this ill-defined and much-abused term is more often than not used to condemn content, not conduct.

and have so far made no effort to respond to any counter arguments made against you (here or against the posts you still have in the source thread).

Most of the replies to my posts have not been worthy of response.    They are either insulting, contain blatant lies, or misrepresent my position.    It is less controversial to simply ignore them, but there were a few worthy of response, and I will go back and do so.      I  hate replying to only a few messages as it seems the neglected parties always end up with their feelings hurt.   

 

Please note the site guidelines:

I will definitely give them a read.

Consider this your warning.  Post intelligent arguments or go away.  We have no time for your provocative logical fallacies & seditious witticisms.

My posts are articulate and cogent - Far moreso than some of the abusive and dishonest replies that have been made to me.  I believe that the fundamental issue here is one of intolerance of differing points of view, and in-group hostility to out-sider. 

If you feel I have engaged in logical fallacies, please call me on them, specifically.  They are intellectually dishonest, and not a practice I wish to engage in.    I'd like to believe that there's still room to have differing opinions without the need to fudge facts, engage in fallacy, or stoop to abuse.   

 

[armyvern]

Well I find this statement by you very intersting (and telling) indeed:

They are either insulting, contain blatant lies, or misrepresent my position.  

Turn around and take a good look in the mirror and sort yourself out Mr. Legless Marine; Your posts ARE insulting, contain baltant lies and misrepresent soldiers, the mission and the situation on the ground.

 

[paracowboy]

not too mention that, unless you are a Marine who has lost his lower limbs, you have chosen a deliberately offensive screen-name. Indicative of trollish behaviour from the very start.

 

[warspite]

Soooo.... trying to generate public support of a war is a bad bad idea. Ohhh I get it now. :
Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on these "lovely" anti-war protests that my clock tells me should be occurring today? Any complaints here.
 
So what exactly is the problem with some sort of propaganda campaign? I seriously doubt that the Taliban and all their friends don't engage in propaganda... but wait. Video's of captives being executed, but that couldn't be propaganda... or what about how their clerics preach war against us to those who take their religion very seriously?
 
How does us doing some positive campaigning make us a bunch of war mongering baby killers? In WWII both sides engaged in major propaganda campaigns. Both sides trying to raise their public support while trying and lower their enemies. Public support is a major factor in any war so does it make sense to just ignore it?

  They are either insulting, contain blatant lies, or misrepresent my position.   

I have made a point of not insulting anyone in this post so come on and feel free to reply.

 

[McG]

warspite, 
Here are my thoughts from the other thread:

[We] Don't need the propaganda campaign.  Just need to keep Canadians informed with the truth & not to let attention seekers toss-out lies without being corrected in the media.

Maybe I'm being finicky with words, but I think "propaganda" can imply a certain degree of dishonesty that you don't mean to suggest.  The truth is what we need, and we need a government official to go on record and correct every misconception that the media is willing to print.  (See the C130 vs A400 thread for information about the media not printing known information just because a DND official would not quote it to them).

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

If you feel I have engaged in logical fallacies, please call me on them, specifically.  They are intellectually dishonest, and not a practice I wish to engage in.

*ahem* 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52451/post-469928.html#msg469928

 

[Infanteer]

Eugene, is that you?

 

[Slim]

Eugene, is that you?

Whoever he is he is about one post away from a warning for trolling and posting deliberately offensive material on the site. Right now he is violating so many of the conduct rules that I'd need a page just to quote them.

 

[Legless_Marine]

Many better qualified invaders?  We have all their experiences to learn off, and we are doing so.
the Russians, were not very well "qualified" invaders, unless by "qualified" you mean impatient, brutal, poorly trained and sadly motivated.
And the British, well, in their first war they looked down upon the Afghans, and expected them to be pushovers...
I will stop there.

You raise some excellent points, particulary the one about motivation.   I had initially wondered how many of ~500,000 Russian wounded were the result of self-harm - Now I find myself wondering just how big that proportion was. 

In Canada's favor is the knowledge gleaned from the experiences of the British and the Russians,  even the Americans in Iraq.   Against Canada is it's value of modern civilities, which mitigates and attenuates it's potential for ruthlessness - Limitations likely not felt by the red army.

We, Have done none of this today, and we are not invaders...

We have NOT done the following:

entered forcefully as an enemy
entered as if to take possession
entered with the intent to affect injuriously or destructively, as disease

What matters is not whether we think we're Invaders, but whether the myriad Afghan tribes and factions see us as invaders.    Perception is everything.  Afghans have a history of being hostile to ousiders.   As mentioned previously, an invitation from one is not an invitation from all.    Time will tell.

Oh, and it is NATO, not Nato..it is an acronym.  you did get ISAF right though.

Pedantry is ignorant and petty, and sullies an otherwise  respectable response.   Any moron can point out a spelling error, and I'm sure you have much more value to contribute to this discussion.

 

[McG]

If you feel I have engaged in logical fallacies, please call me on them, specifically.  They are intellectually dishonest, and not a practice I wish to engage in.

Okay.  It has already been demonstrated in this thread that this one is a red herring:

The Russians tried to occupy Afghanistan  . . .

 

[paracowboy]

I want to hear some answers:

1) why do you insist on using terms insinuating that we are in Afghanistan as an occupying force akin to the Soviets? The 'tactics' you advocate are draconian, and reminiscent of Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan.

2) your post on propaganda advocates disturbing machiavellian manipulation of the media and populace, in direct contrast to everything a Western democracy stands for, and the ideals for which we fight.

3) your tone in every post is either that of an extreme Leftist trying to sound 'cleverly sarcastic', or, if you are not tongue-in-cheek, that of a Fascist.

Wassup wit' that?

 

[Legless_Marine]

Soooo.... trying to generate public support of a war is a bad bad idea. Ohhh I get it now. :

I thought we were talking about a humanitarian relief mission, not  war....?

So what exactly is the problem with some sort of propaganda campaign?  

It is a government's place to implement policy as guided by public opinion - Not implement policy, and then promote retroactively.    The idea of the government using my tax money to influence public opinion is horrifying.    I am horrified that it doesn't horrify you.

I seriously doubt that the Taliban and all their friends don't engage in propaganda... but wait. Video's of captives being executed, but that couldn't be propaganda... or what about how their clerics preach war against us to those who take their religion very seriously?

Using excessively bad examples to benchmark our own behavior is a dangerous road.    We should benchmark or own choices and behavior against the highest standard - Not the lowest.

How does us doing some positive campaigning make us a bunch of war mongering baby killers? In WWII both sides engaged in major propaganda campaigns. Both sides trying to raise their public support while trying and lower their enemies. Public support is a major factor in any war so does it make sense to just ignore it?
I have made a point of not insulting anyone in this post so come on and feel free to reply.

I don't know what "war mongering baby killers" has to do with this.    Perhaps you are confusing this thread with another.

 

 

[Infanteer]

Eugene, you gonna answer TeddyRuxpin's response, or are you going to stick to tapdancing with a guy from Europe and a 16-year old?

 

[Infanteer]

Explain to me how this is Bush's war?

 

[McG]

Most of the replies to my posts have not been worthy of response.    They are either insulting, contain blatant lies, or misrepresent my position.    It is less controversial to simply ignore them, but there were a few worthy of response, and I will go back and do so.

For someone so ready to suggest the inferiority of other posters, you do a good job of ignoring the solid replies to your posts.  Is it that all the well crafted replies come from people that have misrepresent your position?  That might suggest it is worth replying just to clarify your position.

Try living up to all you present yourself to be and give these some answers:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-468085.html#msg468085
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-468103.html#msg468103
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-468250.html#msg468250
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-470387.html#msg470387
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-470360.html#msg470360

If you feel I have engaged in logical fallacies, please call me on them, specifically.  They are intellectually dishonest, and not a practice I wish to engage in.

We've called you on some in the other thread.  Why are you shy to respond?

 

[Legless_Marine]

Maybe I'm being finicky with words, but I think "propaganda" can imply a certain degree of dishonesty that you don't mean to suggest.  The truth is what we need, and we need a government official to go on record and correct every misconception that the media is willing to print.  (See the C130 vs A400 thread for information about the media not printing known information just because a DND official would not quote it to them).

FWIW, I agree:  Propaganda, fundamentally, is dishonest.   It is the antithesis of truth and freedom, and it is disappointing to hear those who give lip-service to freedom advocating it.

Nothing wrong with the military having a public relations office to correct misinformation - provided it doesn't turn into one of those 2000 employee government buracracies that throws giant house boat parties but doesn't invite me.

 

[paracowboy]

Why have you chosen such an obviously offensive screen name, without answering my questions as to your service in the United States Marine Corps? Or were you in the Royal Marines?

 

[Infanteer]

What matters is not whether we think we're Invaders, but whether the myriad Afghan tribes and factions see us as invaders.    Perception is everything.  Afghans have a history of being hostile to ousiders.   As mentioned previously, an invitation from one is not an invitation from all.    Time will tell.

Well, one of our own members actually talked to the guys during his trip to southern Afghanistan:

I've met several former Muhajideen, in various capacities over there, they dont view us as anything like the Russians.

What has your many miles of travel in Khandahar province done to give you a handle on Afghan perception?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Ladies and Gentleman,

Integrity.

Don't pretend to know the color of the boat house....

dileas

tess