Uninformed chatter on the wars in the Sandbox....

[George Wallace]

31 October 2003

Is there any more recent statements....the date kinda negates the intent.

Not really.  What it shows is the lack of communication between the Peace Groups and their constant changing of agenda with the changes of the wind.  There are more recent posts at that site that would clear up many of their misconceptions, such as: Afghanistan’s New Legislature: Making Democracy Work, Asia Report N°116, 15 May 2006;  Rebuilding the Afghan State: The European Union’s Role, Asia Report N°107, 30 November 2005;  Afghanistan Elections: Endgame or New Beginning?, Asia Report N°101, 21 July 2005;  Political Parties in Afghanistan, Asia Briefing N°39, 2 June 2005; all on this page:  http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1266&l=1

One year they are all supporting UN intervention, the next they call the UN/NATO Forces a bunch of Imperialistic murdering thugs.  These people have a serious problem with ADS.  They are afraid to do any real research, and look at any research with an unbiased point of view.  Their simplistic views of Life are totally unrealistic.  They have no concepts of Human Nature, nor of how many truly 'Evil' people are in these parts of the world.  If they refuse to do the research or perhaps travel to other lands to see first hand, they are doomed to go through life with blinders on and no concept of reality.  I would imagine many of their concepts about Americans would be drastically changed if they would simply jump in their car or on a bus and go down to the States and visit/vacation and see for themselves who Americans really are.......but that would be too easy for them to do......it would distroy so many of their misconceptions.......

I guess they have yet to face 'Reality'.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Of course we could be forgetting the obvious........'deserter' is just pissed cause we are kickin' the living crap out of his fellow Taliban.

 

[armyvern]

Of course, the Taliban was a terrible regime, ...

... I could form my whole argument against the war simply based on how Hamid Karzai is a corrupt invididual whose government we are supporting. (Karzai, despite his outward niceties, is a fundamentalist himself who used to be allied with the Taliban), but that would only be but one fact out of hundreds that could be used to oppose the war.  Here I am putting forward more basic arguments against what is simply Imperialism in a 21st century guide.

So in your mind...the Taliban was a terrible regime (and hey I'm not about to argue with you on that)...
so we
should pull out because Hamid Karzai used to be allied with them.......
so that
the Taliban can walk right back in and take over.

And with exactly those kind of thoughts from ill-informed people like yourself from the left, I can almost guarantee you that the average citizen of Afghanistan (who overwhelmingly thank our soldiers as they walk by and support them by the way- but hey they don't show THAT on the news clips and soundbites-) says: Thank Allah that these people are not in charge of the government of Canada.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"Deserter", eh?  How does your mind feel about the fact you vacated it?

 

[Popurhedoff]

Do not feed the Trolls...  Deserter is just that...a Troll.

 

[RangerRay]

Is this "deserter" one of those American deserters currently in our country who will soon be repatriated for service in Leavensworth, or is he the so-called "Canadian deserter" who bailed after one week of reserve training, and would never have gone to A'stan unless he begged his chain-of-command to be sent?

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

(I hope I am not feeding a troll - If I am,  feel free to wipe this post Mods)

I just read this thread,  and honestly I see no reason to respond to the allegations.  (Others did it just fine)  I just want to say two things.  Firstly,  I honestly hope that we are able to make a better argument to the Muslim world as to why we are in Afghanistan than the argument presented here by deserter against it. I think that if we come across as tendentious and poorly reasoned as Deserter appears to me,  I don't think we'll ever have an agreement.  Secondly, I do want to commend those on this thread who replied with both dignity and grace to some rather absurd and offensive things.  It takes character to keep calm and to continue to present one's position in an intelligent manner.  Good work - it is constructive to be able to keep calm and continue to appear rational and not like a foaming at the mouth radical.  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

deserter
I am a Muslim convert (thanks to Malaysian law) if you don't think radical Islam is a threat to personal freedoms and to the health and welfare of a country, I suggest that you go and live as a Muslim and then start asking questions. You will find the results quite illuminating.

I certainly don't hate Muslims, that would mean hating my wife, her family and her friends. But I do hate the radical Islamicist as they will kill me, my family and they desire to turn the world into a single strict Islamic theology, where freedom of thought, speech and religion is banned, not to mention democracy.

Most Muslims are moderate, but they sit back and do little to prevent the radicals in their midst and that is why they share the blame.

As for accusing Canadian soldiers of war crimes, if you have proof, bring it forward to the UN war crimes commission, if not stop making groundless accusations against soldiers who are not allowed to publicly defend themselves.

 

[COBRA-6]

:rofl:

+1  :rofl:

- "no war for oil"
- "this is bush's war"
- "the west are war criminals"
- "illegal occupation"
- "I am gainfully employed"

= routine slogans and lies that you hear from these types...

 

[deserter]

Wow, a lot of anger on this board.

As far as Karzai is concerned, I thought it was important to point out that he is a religious fundamentalist in many ways.  He broke with the Taliban, but for tactical reasons not moralistic ones.

It's important to look at thing from the insurgents point of view.  They're the ones that live there and the troops are the ones who are the invaders, doesn't it just make sense that they would oppose our dictates?  If foreigners were marching around your homeland riding humvees up and down your dirty streets getting into firefights, wouldn't you be pissed off?  Why should they not be allowed to govern themselves as they choose? 

Just because they're opposing or attacking our troops doesn't make them evil, because the truth is that we don't know what causes each and every insurgent to fight.  Because prisoners are denied the most elementary rights and are subject to torture, the media can't show the public the true nature of the situation. 

For every insurgent you could find a different reason of why they are fighting.  It's not their fault they don't support NATO.  From the regular Afghans point of view, who the hell is NATO anyway, other than the same sort of people (white) who have been invading Afghanistan for years. There were three wars between Britain and Afghanistan between 1839 and 1919, military funding and creation of the Mujahadeen by the Americans and of course attack by the Russians.  These people are tired of people kicked around by other countries. 

At some point you are going to have to accept that the insurgency is composed of regular Afghans, and they will continue to be Islamic whether you like it or not.  You can't kill them all even though you'd like to, and the ones that survive will only be so full of hate that the risk of terrorism in the future will only increase.

If the Southern regions don't want to recognize the government of Karzai then that's their choice and outside troops have no reason to enforce it.  If Quebec votes someday to not recognize Ottawa's authority, I won't like it but I'll respect their vote.

Afghanistan is not our country, folks.  Canada shouldn't be in the business of forging a nation together by force.  It's like pounding a square peg in a round hole.  When NATO troops use white phosphorus on Afghan insurgents, it's no worse than Saddam using poison gas on the Kurds.  The goals are the same in each case after all, to decimate and terrorize the population into submission for the sake of having a central government.

 

[McG]

deserter,
Why have you not provided anything to back yourself up?

You have not taken any advice from this board.  You have not answered any of the counter arguments raised so far.  You do not know what you are talking about.  I am convinced that you are only here as a troll.

If your next post does not provide something of a fact based coherent argument (feel free to link to references) then you will be gone.

Cheers.

 

[deserter]

Someone posted the thoughts of an Afghan who gave a speech in which she supported the war.  Here's a statement from an actual Afghan still living in the country that couldn't escape the US-led attack on the country.

"...For Rukia the worst day of the war was the day she lost all five of her children. US bombs flattened her Kandahar home, now a pile of rubble, and blood, and bits of shrapnel that tore through flesh. Her children's.
For Haji Khan the war is an endless succession of worst days. "It never ends," he explained, from a Pakistani refugee camp, on the border near Afghanistan. "It was boom, boom, boom, boom, and then boom again. It was like being inside a nightmare. Everyone was crying. There were dead people everywhere." Now he hangs on, fighting off cold, fighting to get enough to eat, so he can live another day, another nightmare, another worst day."

There are literally thousands of newspaper accounts like this one.  Her children will never get a chance to experience the freedom that you envision.  If the West had taken a peaceful approach to change in Afghanistan, 30,000 dead Afghans could still be alive today, and you'd have a hundred thousand less vengeful insurgents to deal with.  Canada is culpable for this alongside our allies.

 

[McG]

What is your source, or did you write that quote?

 

[Trinity]

If there were thousands of newspaper articles like this

you could provide a few for us....???

 

[deserter]

Go onto google and search for Rukia Afghanistan children.  This one account is hosted by university websites (.edu), blogs, online journals and other sites.

Or just type in the words civilian casualties afghanistan and you can find many similar accounts.  Why do you seem so incredulous?

 

[Infanteer]

If the West had taken a peaceful approach to change in Afghanistan, 30,000 dead Afghans could still be alive today, and you'd have a hundred thousand less vengeful insurgents to deal with.  Canada is culpable for this alongside our allies.

Ah yes, the Mullah Layton strategy.  Please, explain the "peaceful approach to change" that we should have undertaken and how it could have been put into place.

You do remember who we're dealing with, no?  Hanging teachers and beheading opponents.  There are people on this forum who've met Taliban and other jihadis while in Afghanistan; perhaps you should listen to what they have to say rather than calling them war criminals....

 

[McG]

deserter,
Don't come here and ask us to do your homework for you.  If you want to argue a point, give us the reputable source.

 

[gaspasser]

Ah yes, the Mullah Layton strategy.  Please, explain the "peaceful approach to change" that we should have undertaken and how it could have been put into place.

You do remember who we're dealing with, no?  Hanging teachers and beheading opponents.  There are people on this forum who've met Taliban and other jihadis while in Afghanistan; perhaps you should listen to what they have to say rather than calling them war criminals....

+1 Infanteer!

 

[armyvern]

"...For Rukia the worst day of the war was the day she lost all five of her children. US bombs flattened her Kandahar home, now a pile of rubble, and blood, and bits of shrapnel that tore through flesh. Her children's.
For Haji Khan the war is an endless succession of worst days. "It never ends," he explained, from a Pakistani refugee camp, on the border near Afghanistan. "It was boom, boom, boom, boom, and then boom again. It was like being inside a nightmare. Everyone was crying. There were dead people everywhere." Now he hangs on, fighting off cold, fighting to get enough to eat, so he can live another day, another nightmare, another worst day."

Now the reporter should ask them whether they want the Taliban back in power. I bet I know what their answers would be.

There are literally thousands of newspaper accounts like this one.  Her children will never get a chance to experience the freedom that you envision.  If the West had taken a peaceful approach to change in Afghanistan, 30,000 dead Afghans could still be alive today, and you'd have a hundred thousand less vengeful insurgents to deal with.  Canada is culpable for this alongside our allies.

Hmmm, negotiate with those insurgents and Taliban who just don't negotiate (except with a large knife cutting at your throat if you happen to be an infidel, and oops with a rope or gunshot in a football stadium if your an Afghan woman who dared let your hair show). Funny seems I've heard this line of speach from someone else recently.... :

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Afghanistan is not our country, folks.  Canada shouldn't be in the business of forging a nation together by force.  It's like pounding a square peg in a round hole.  When NATO troops use white phosphorus on Afghan insurgents, it's no worse than Saddam using poison gas on the Kurds.  The goals are the same in each case after all, to decimate and terrorize the population into submission for the sake of having a central government.

Canada was forged in battle, natives against Vikings, French against natives, French against English, English against Americans, Canadians against Americans, Boers, Germans, Red Russians, Germans again, Italian's, Japanese, etc.

I guess by your logic, we should not have any role in UN peacekeeping forces either?

WP is very nasty, but it was not designed like a WMD, plus the Kurds were citizens of his country. Now if we used posion gas at Oka, then you would have a point.

Basically your whole logic is to stick our head in the hole and hope nobody bothers us. It won't work, we are not alone in the world, the world will have an impact on us and you will have to make choices, often the choices are not great, it is not about choosing right or wrong, it is about what is the best we can do for now.

You accuse people here of being criminals murderers and you wonder why they annoyed with you? If they were the people you think they were, then you would be hanging from a lamp post with gut cut open like the Taliban do to people they don't like.