Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[Scoobie Newbie]

Rifleman drive LAV's which would benifit from having a pistol.  Armoured also have rifles as well.

 

[George Wallace]

So would pistols only be good for armour sice they're inside and wouldn't have to mees with a rifle?

No.  It doesn't matter what Trade you are.  It depends more on what job you are doing, whether or not you should have the pistol.  It would be easier to equip everyone with pistols as well as carbines or rifles or other weapons (C6 or C9).  The reason we may not see this has been mentioned in other posts, referring to availability, training, etc.

 

[Jammer]

What I'm saying is that pistols are essential...I believe they should be issued as a sidearm as well. Regardless of rank and or social status.

 

[Haggis]

What I'm saying is that pistols are essential...I believe they should be issued as a sidearm as well. Regardless of rank and or social status.

Funny you should mention this.  On my last tour I was accompanying my Coy 2IC on a Cordon and Search op (the OC was on leave).  He, being a CFR'd CWO, always liked to carry a rifle.  I carried a pistol most of the time.  The op was conducted with a new unit of the local PD who wouldn't talk with the Coy 2IC, but only with me.  When he asked about this it became apparent that in their culture, the guy with the pistol was "obviously" in charge of the guys with the rifles.  So, in some parts of the world, the pistol does convey "rank and/or social status".

An interesting aside to this is that if everyone carries a pistol, it could make it more difficult for the bad guys to target the leaders.

 

[Jarnhamar]

An interesting aside to this is that if everyone carries a pistol, it could make it more difficult for the bad guys to target the leaders.

I remember asking a certain platoon commander overseas why he carried the radio when I was his signaller. He just looked at me and smiled. Took me a second to figure it out, he obviously found it more humorous than I did.

I agree it does seem like carrying a pistol has a huge social status attached to it.  I used to get pissed off seeing guys (who never left the camp) walking around with their pistol on their hip like they were some kind of gun slinger. I also remember the frustrations of constantly passing around the few pistols we had to search teams when we were in houses checking for weapons. The rifles would bang into everything and it was a psychological factor. The people were a lot more friendly when we didn't have assault rifles in their house. (security teams still had em)
Of course we could get away with that because of the low threat level, I just mean to point out we couldn't get pistols for operation reasons yet everyone in camp seemed to have one.

What I'm saying is that pistols are essential...I believe they should be issued as a sidearm as well. Regardless of rank and or social status.

Exactly. 

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

For vehicle crews (and dismounts) the C8 with the heavy barrel should suffice with the exception of the drivers.  It is handy enough to manipulate from the vehicle hatches in the city. 

Don't neglect the C6 up top.  It has saved lives.

When I've gone on foot I've ditched the pistol (or packed it in the ruck).  If you're always going to be in your vehicle then a pistol isn't going to hurt unless you have an ND.  Its mostly for walking around camp and still be "armed."  Please take a long gun when you go out.

 

[Kat Stevens]

One long gun is good. One long gun, plus a short "you'll never take me alive, jihadi!" gun is better, in my estimation... :threat:

 

[geo]

So would pistols only be good for armour sice they're inside and wouldn't have to mees with a rifle?

Pistols can come in handy for sappers too..............

 

[KevinB]

Everyone should have a pistol and a carbine. PERIOD

The training issue is double edged -- pistols are already issued to people who dont know how to use them properly... (mind you so are rifles and carbines...)

The CF has more than enough pistols to go around for a Bn+ sized force for ops and trg.

However since the CF does not allocate enough time and ammo to train those currently issued pistol on the TO&E - adding more pistols will not solve anything.


I carried a pistol and carbine when I was in Afghan with the CF -- I certainly dont think it was just for LCF...

 

[Centurian1985]

From past experience, having a pistol is preferable to a long barrel when travelling in a regular vehicle, especially for small groups travelling to 'meetings' etc.  However, if travelling in a convoy, where there are dozens of soldiers with weapons, including larger calibers mounted on the vehicles, it may be redundant to have every single member armed with both pistol and rifle. That said, I personally prefered to carry the extra pistol regardless of the extra weight it entailed.

 

[Big Red]

Nobody should be carrying JUST a pistol around unless they are inside a relatively safe camp.

As Kevin said most of the people carrying pistols aren't competent with them anyways.  Issue them to everyone and implement a basic Fighting/Tactical pistol class prior to deployment with high round count, realistic shooting.

This isn't a problem confined to our military. I see people carrying pistols that have an empty chamber or BHPs in the half cock everyday.  People that make way more money than a soldier and who *should* know better.

 

[Good2Golf]

Everyone should have a pistol and a carbine. PERIOD

The training issue is double edged -- pistols are already issued to people who don't know how to use them properly... (mind you so are rifles and carbines...)

The CF has more than enough pistols to go around for a Bn+ sized force for ops and trg.

However since the CF does not allocate enough time and ammo to train those currently issued pistol on the TO&E - adding more pistols will not solve anything.


I carried a pistol and carbine when I was in Afghan with the CF -- I certainly don't think it was just for LCF...

+1

Chopper or Land cruiser, most cases I would pack pistol and take C8 with me, especially when not deploying to "friendly (Gov't of AFG buildings) turf" or as dictated by TFA Orders.  There were also times when I'd carry 9mm with an inside-waist holster which fit in well when moving around in circles where having weapons was frowned upon, but a good enough rapport had not been built yet for me to fully trust the locals.

I-6's points about competency are very important!  Touch wood that I didn't and wouldn't have an ND with either weapon, no scratch that...no wood needed...I was trained on both and felt confident in handling both weapons.  What is important is to follow the TOETs/IA&Ss without variation.  Departing from them is what opens you up to unintended occurrences.  It also helps that I have a long "salute" finger and could de-cock the BHP without an empty mag in it.  If there were one and one only mod to the BHP I'd make, it would be a proper de-cocking lever (with properly modified TOETs).

Cheers,
Duey

 

[KevinB]

Duey - pull the trigger plunger/mag disconnect -- voila no mag safety and same manual of arms as the C8/C7...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What no pictures?  :

>

 

[armyrules]

I just think that pistols are easier to handle when suprised and are lighter they should be mandatory. Plus aren't they not cheaper to manufacture? So it would save the big boys $$

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The pistol is a supplement not a replacement to the rifle or machine gun.

 

[George Wallace]

I just think that pistols are easier to handle when suprised and are lighter they should be mandatory. Plus aren't they not cheaper to manufacture? So it would save the big boys $$

Well.....You failed in this account.  Nice try.

 

[axeman]

while i was deployed in agghanistan i had the pleasure of being a driver which means a pistol. with thati was also part of the QRF which means i need a long rifle .  i was also  one of the grenadeers so a M203 . oh yes a radio operator  so a radio., lots of kit and each one of them necassary.i hadn to use rules of engagement to protect another soldier . the long rifle would of taken too long to employ so out with my trusty not rusty browning.with one pistol shot i restored  some semeblance of order to the situation. with a rifle I could of reached out and shot the offender and probably found in the clear  with the mounted C-9 i would of caused colatteral damage far in excess of what was req. the pistol was what was req in the situation tyhey are a good thing IF given the PROPER training . of 5 ND's 4 were with pistols , 3 of those not trained but tried to justufy to have one much to the betterment of the situation.  pistols good WITH training...

:threat:

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I will not presume to speak on operational requirements of a side arm.  However, training wise hand guns are not a simple thing to pick up.  Rifles provide far more stability and accuracy.  For hand guns, grip and trigger control become really critical.  Our Department provides a full week of training, plus you get another week at Police College.  And even then, you are just good enough to be safe on the road.  We requalify every year, but more often would be better. 
For close quarters street battle we get taught body indexing.  Since most police fire fights happen within two meters, you don't have time to aim.  Thus body indexing is used, which is basically wherever the gun is pointed the bullets go.  It is more about muscle memory than lining up sights with you eyes, and that needs repetetive training.  We train to get off two center of mass shots in under two seconds.  However, we also have snap retention holsters, and no safety on the gun.  If you have to take time to draw the weapon and disengage the safety, then you might have had time to snap your rifle up for a shot. 
I am not familiar with operational pistol ammo.  Are hollow point ie) Winchester Ranger SXT, rounds used or are they full jacketed?  The point being if you find yourself in a situation where you don't want the full penetration of a rifle round, a pistol can be a real bonus.  Particularly with the hollow point that will likely dump all it's energy into buddy.  How frequently do the bad guys have ballistic armour?  Side arms generally won't get through that.
Just some thoughts.

 

[FightingIrish]

i think troops should have the choice. carry a pistol and ammo is going to add so extra weight plus u are now going to have to get a holster on your tac vest or somewhere