Thinking about the Infantry Attack

[a_majoor]

Section sizes may be similar in the Light and Mech Infantry, it is just the skill sets that are different (the driver and gunner still belong to the section, after all).

I see things moving in a slightly different tangent, with TTPs, training and standards modified to reflect operations in complex terrain, and de emphasising heavy firepower for "accurate" firepower. In one of these threads is a description of a scout/sniper unit which has both the ability to find targets via stealth and mobility (the "scout" part of the equation); but also is able to deal with targets directly (the "sniper" half). I cannot imagine them going out without a fairly heavy helping of comms gear, and would guess they have lots of assets "on call" in case they discover a great target, or need to get out of a hot situation.

An eight man section is still possible, with each assault group moving in short bounds from cover to cover, while the alternate group provides cover. Four men would be about the minimum to cover the arcs "left/right" as well as "high/low". Improved weapons optics and PRR or similar communication devices between the section members would allow the members to pick up targets and pass on target data to their mates. A bigger organization such as proposed by Infanteer increases the number of "eyes on", so perhaps with ten or twelve man sections observer or spotter teams could also be added.

 

[Infanteer]

A bigger organization such as proposed by Infanteer increases the number of "eyes on", so perhaps with ten or twelve man sections observer or spotter teams could also be added.

Although we thrashed around the concept in "The Infantry of Tommorrow" and didn't really seem to come up with a concensus, I think the issue may be worth exploring again.

Here is what Kevin had to say over there:

Okay maybe I did not ellaborate very clearly.  I don't consider the Wainwright/Sufield section and Platoon attack likely to occur in the near future...

Section and Pl attacks in build up ares - I do - however gaining lodgement and operating in built up area the 4 man team is a more flexible building block than a 8 or ten man section.  The idea is with the four members one can be a specialist - breacher,DM,LMG,cooms,medic etc.  I fail to see why it requires more leadership trg  - we used to have no hook private runing section attacks (live) during the RV days.  I dont like the sepaerate leader idea as it make us inflexible in that set piece.

I actually prefer a 12man section for Light Inf ops (adding a DM, C6team and a medic).

As for the Cav issue - I dotn see hwy a 011 crew cannot be a team with a 031 dismount section - but it make it more flexible to be able to conduct different type of missions that the curent set-up - it takes away from the inf system to expectthem to specialize in both light in vehicle operations 9crewing a LAV is a full time job and it will degrade your light skills accordingly)

 

[Chags]

As a comment to Kevin B..  Wainwright will have a number of built-up areas that should be completed by summer 06. These will not be instrumented for WES (Weapons Effect System) yet, but that will come in the future, along with a few other fully instrumented villages.

So far this is what we have in the works:

Terrace Village - cut into a hillside (like in Kabul)
Subterranean Complex
Farm Compound- with perimeter wall, a few buildings
enhancement of Vernonberg Village


lots more to come.. 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

What about 12 man sections to allow LOBs...

 

[Infanteer]

What about 12 man sections to allow LOBs...

LOB?

Left out of Battle?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

LOB?

Left out of Battle?

Yep.  I didn't want to just refer to those on LTA (Leave), although that is certainly a concern in our current climate of six monthitis.  LOB would include

sick
parental leave
career course
leave
etc etc.

With a 12 man section, you could train in the sure knowledge that you would always go out the gate with 8 soldiers that you had trained with.

 

[Infanteer]

Reviewing an AAR from the USMC in Fallujah, I see that the Marines fully support the 12 man squad as a good urban fighting organization.   Perhaps this could be fit within a 12-man section that Kevin B pointed out in the Infantry Forum :

1 x Commander
1 x 2ic
2 x LMG (C-9)
2 x Riflemen
2 x Grenadier
1 x C-6 team (gunner and assistant)
1 x Designated Marksman (equipped with accurized full-length rifle)
1 x "Tactical Casualty Care" trained Infantry soldier (a medic trained Rifleman) who is equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun - this guy has the advantage of being a medical pers who is expected to fight and not be constrained by the Red Cross brassard.

This would be a twelve man section.   In the urban environment, it could be formed into (keeping flexibility in mind):

Assault:
1 x Section Commander
2 x Riflemen
1 x Grenadier

Support:
2 x LMG
1 x Section Combat Medic (with Shotgun)
1 x Grenadier

Security:
1 x C6 Team (2 pers)
1 x DM
1 x 2 ic

Plus add any section atts in there.

This 12 man section could easily be rearranged by the commander for a more conventional section attack outside of an urban environment (Again keeping flexibility in mind - tactical situation can merit sending guys to either groups):

Flanking element (could be split in two if doing envelopment):
1 x Section Commander
1 x LMG
2 x Riflemen
2 x Grenadier
1 x Combat Medic

Suppressive element:
1 x 2ic
1 x C-6 (gunner and assistant)
1 x DM
1 x LMG

Quite a flexible and robust section.   If numbers aren't up to TO&E levels (which they almost never are), there is still breathing space for the section to maintain fighting power when down to 8 men - you just have to start husbanding the more specialized tasks (DM, Medic) - perhaps at the Platoon level.

Question is, with all this power at the section level, what should the Platoon have for integral support?   An extra C-6 team or two?   Definitely an anti-armour team.   Perhaps a small mortar (60 mm)?   Atts and dets are important for the platoon, especially in an urban environment?   Perhaps the Platoon Commander can be given a section or a 4-man det of Sappers in the Pioneer role - these guys are on call for specialized demo, booby traps, or perhaps they have some specialized weapons (flamethrowers, man-portable Fuel-Air Explosive launchers).

At the company level, I'm supportive of a specialized platoon using the "Company Armoury" approach, bringing a variety of support weapons that are suited towards the mission to aid the company commander.

The more I reflect on this, the more I see it as a really solid Light Force Infantry Section/Platoon organization.

 

[KevinB]

I like it  ;D

My only concern is that you with the 4-4-4 split have a 4man assault det out of 12men.  Ideally I'd like 8-9 men available to enter the structure - that way you can do simos and/or floods to maintain the intiative - with the 9th being the medic/breacher.

Given the Mk46 / C9A2 - it is easier to place the LMG gunner (but admittedly not ideal) into the stack.


Additionally with the demise of Pioneers - the method of entry has become VERY limited - clearly identified was the need for a Explosives Entry course or Pioneer SME to instruct in low level demo.  Having been on the giving and receiving end of DD's - you know the doorway is still the "Fatal Funnel" regardless, it would be nice to knock through a different and selfmade door.

 

[ArmyRick]

How about a 12 man section with a similar to what we do now flavor?

Assault Group One
SGT, 3 x Troops (by troops I mean CPL or PTE) standard 3 x C7, 1 x C9, 1 x M203
Assault Group Two
MCPL, 3 x Troops (similar to AG1)
Support Group
MCPL C7 heavy barrell and scope (decent one)
C6 GPMG Team
Designated marksman with 7.62mm rifle or .338 weapon (brits like this caliber)

For Platoon, have three 12 man sections plus 4 man HQ (LT and WO, with 2 x Signalers) and a 4 man javelin team (use 1 effectively)

For pl ops , group all the Support groups with the PL 2IC to form a wicked platoon fire base

For LAVIII Platoons, those vehicles have kick @ss fire power with 25mm so eliminate all but 1 support group for the entire platoon...
This puts the platoon (for light infantry) at 44 full strength (not unreasonable)

Did any body notice that in the FCS concepts for the US Army infantry platoon they are looking at 5 IFV platoon (HQ C/S, WPNS SQUAD C/S and 3 x SQUAD C/S the link is here http://www.army.mil/fcs/factfiles/icv.html

 

[Long in the tooth]

Wow!   So LAR/C2 group retro.   I recall the micro managed section attacks that got to the point that if you strayed from the method of the last successful attack you were failed.   Might I suggest that before this becomes choreographed to death the principles of attack are reviewed?

1.   Locate the enemy.
2.   WIN THE FIRE FIRE FIGHT
3.  Always keep one foot on the ground (and a small reserve if poss)

I apologize for being so blunt, but after over 12 years in a platoon/section, I got really tired of 7 battled drills being resold as 6 or 9 and being exactly the same thing...

 

[Infanteer]

I like it   ;D

My only concern is that you with the 4-4-4 split have a 4man assault det out of 12men.   Ideally I'd like 8-9 men available to enter the structure - that way you can do simos and/or floods to maintain the intiative - with the 9th being the medic/breacher.

Given the Mk46 / C9A2 - it is easier to place the LMG gunner (but admittedly not ideal) into the stack.

Yeah, I felt that the assault element was lacking enough boots as well; however, don't forget that the support actually goes in with the assault, only they roll up behind them.   I was structuring the section with the AAR principles in mind:

- The assault element must contain no SAW's if that is possible. A SAW gunner must never clear rooms. The assault element should contain the most number of Marines because every room must be cleared with two Marines. The support element will supplement the assault by falling in the stack and peeling off to clear rooms.

- Support should include any engineers or assaultman attached to the squad. A SAW gunner should be included in this section in order to provide massive firepower in the house if contact is made. The corpsman is also located in support because he can use his shotgun to breach as well as provide quick medical attention to casualties. The support section will fall in the stack behind the assault element to assist in any way.

Perhaps, with the C-6 providing the heat in the Security team, we can ditch 1 or both C9's from a section and put them in as assaulters.   Instead, these guys would draw (from the "Company Armoury"), prior to going into an urban situation, Automatic Rifles - essentially C-7's with heavy barrels and bipods (as the one Marine Corps Gazette article talked about).   This way, these guys can be useful on the assault element but can rock-and-roll if need be.   This leaves the support element rather slim - a Grenadier and the Section Medic with the Shotgun, but I am assuming that we would stick Pioneer/Sapper atts or any other folks that tagged along into that element.

I have a funny feeling that in an urban environment, your structure is going to be pretty fluid and a section commander is going to have other assets coming and going to his section or to the platoon.

Additionally with the demise of Pioneers - the method of entry has become VERY limited - clearly identified was the need for a Explosives Entry course or Pioneer SME to instruct in low level demo.   Having been on the giving and receiving end of DD's - you know the doorway is still the "Fatal Funnel" regardless, it would be nice to knock through a different and selfmade door.

With you here buddy.   I think doorways have been out of style for the last couple decades since the IDF figured the game out.   Those Marines had some interesting ideas on improvised pyro.... >

 

[Infanteer]

Another solution, lose the C-6 in the Section Urban battle, letting the Platoon handle that.   Send the two gunners as riflemen to the Assault team.   Organization is:

Assault (6):
1 x Section Commander
4 x Riflemen
1 x Grenadier

Support (3):
1 x LMG
1 x Section Combat Medic (with Shotgun)
1 x Grenadier

Security (3):
1 x LMG
1 x DM
1 x 2 ic

Now you got 6 boots up on the assault, followed by three (and any atts) rolling in behind.   Both security and support teams have an LMG to turn on the heat if need be.   Only changes are to trade in a C-6 for a C-7.

 

[Dale Turner]

Trust me you'd be able to find A LOT medics who'd love to be attached to a unit who would employ them in the support role of a 12 man section attack.  If we could just rub off those pesky red crosses!!!

 

[a_majoor]

I have always found C-9s inside the building to be very cumbersome, not to mention very dangerous when you consider just how "real" buildings are made (the concreate cinder block walls of FIBUA sites are quite deceptive, in a real town or village in most of the world, the C-9 gunner's burst would rip through the walls and into the street beyond. Leave them with the security teams.)

Blasting through walls is a problem if you forgot your Carl G, especially if you don't have any of the HEDP rounds. I hope someone is considering making and issuing pre-packaged "frame charges" which can be set and used with a minimum of training (just follow the cartoon instructions on the back.... ). Doors and windows don't have to be no gos, firing a Carl G HEDP round into the doorway or window will probably detonate or destroy any IEDs positioned around them, and probably kill or disable any troops covering the entryway as well. Don't make this a regular occurance, though.

I still think one of the principles behind Urban Ops should be to get away from the notion of FISH (Fighting In Someone's House) and suppliment it with attacking morale (i.e. making it seem better to leave the house and area than to stand and fight). There probably is no 100% solution, but certainly using manoeuvre, effects and threats to drive the enemy out of an area would cut down on the high casualties and resource allocation that Urban Ops require in the hear and now.

 

[readyfourzero]

We Brits generally have 8 man section (less Armoured Infantry who have 7 - not enough room in the back of a Warrior) but generally patrol with 12 in COIN ops, 3 teams of 4, lead by either a SNCO or an officer but can be led by an experienced Cpl (MCpl I think you call them).  I should imagine you do alot of things the same way as us anyway in the attack. ie  1. Preparation for battle (PAWPERSO) 2. Reaction to effective enemy fire (RTR - return fire in the general area - Take cover - Return fire into likely enemy positions), 3. Locating the enemy, 3. Winning the firefight and supression of the enemy, 4.Attack (Appraoch, Assault and Fight through) and Regroup (PACESSDO).  I think thats about the general NATO way of doing things

 

[readyfourzero]

Sorry sent that without finishing. 

We did toy (as mentioned earlier in this forum) about having a forth section with 2 GPMGs and a 51mm light mortar to help with winning the fire fight but I'm unsure we are going to go down that road.  It would be good but I'm not sure the Brit Army can afford the extra vehicles etc. 

For urban we break down into 4 pairs for the attack; 2 assault teams (2 x L85A2), 1 Command team Section Comd and link man (don't really need him now with personal radios) - POE to FSp team (L85A2) and a FSp team - section 2ic plus 1 both (minimis).

The main idea for us when coming under contact is to get lead straight down the range as soon as possible to try and regain the initive by firing at likely enemy positions to try and force his hand which, I should imagine you chaps do as well.

Before I finish this do you guys use that vast expanse of ground at Suffield as well?  I have had some very hairy moments out there, excellant training facility though.  The last time I went (97) I think for the 24 days we spent on the prarie I think I only average about 4 hours sleep a night - absolutely on my chinstrap as we say, quite dangerous as well I was a part of the ISTAR grouping doing the SAT team for the Mortars, great fun!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Trust me you'd be able to find A LOT medics who'd love to be attached to a unit who would employ them in the support role of a 12 man section attack.  If we could just rub off those pesky red crosses!!!

All the medic's i've worked with from Petawawa seem to have felt this way as well. They were always ready to jump into whatever we were doing and helping out however they can.  One of the guys said they get in some hot water though because how the army figures, if they guy hurt while playing infantry soldier then they cannot do their primary job as a medic. (Which i guess makes some sense).
I'd still rather have a medic (who has trained WITH the section) right up front working along side me that back at a coy or plt HQ area.
While i'm sure it would never fly, it would be nice to be able to send infantry soldiers on a ql3 medic course (or some heavy medical training) and be the section firstaid guy.

I still think one of the principles behind Urban Ops should be to get away from the notion of FISH (Fighting In Someone's House) and suppliment it with attacking morale (i.e. making it seem better to leave the house and area than to stand and fight). There probably is no 100% solution, but certainly using manoeuvre, effects and threats to drive the enemy out of an area would cut down on the high casualties and resource allocation that Urban Ops require in the hear and now.

If we give them an escape path, we could set up an ambush somewhere along the way couldn't we?
Gets them out of the houses with less casualties and damage, and if they stumble into the ambush we can fight them on better prepared terms.

 

[GO!!!]

Just a quick note on the individual taskings of individuals within a section;

1. Splitting your elements into strictly seperate groups is counterproductive. Support-Assault-Security is gone - just like the cold war. Get over it. The new war is urban. Your support and security are the units within your formation, and are a temporary tasking, not a set position.

2. C9 Gunners can and should clear rooms. Keeping them out of the stack is a waste of manpower and causes needless shuffling of troops - causing a loss of momentum. There is nothing special about a C9 Gunner. A rifleman can grab the spare barrel and ammo and do the job just fine. I know - I've done both.

3. Stop trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole with the whole section formation. The marine sections (squads) have 3 teams of about 4 guys each which are independently commanded by a corporal or MCpl equiv. A Sgt commands all three teams as section, but a section is a cumbersome formation in FIBUA/MOUT

4. A Combat Lifesaver/TCCCs qual guy per section (min) is a must, as is a Pl and Coy Medical team.

5. Every member of the team must be able to breach - and dont kid yourself on how this is done. Generally, engineer support is slow, and best left as a Coy asset, and used seldomly. 99% of Breaching is done with a boot and a blast of rifle fire.

6. (I saved the best for last) The best way to attack morale is to kill all those who challenge you. Nothing saps morale like all your freinds dying horrible deaths.The time for deterrence has passed when the section is stacked outside the door.  As the USMC proved in Fallujah, which was touted by various Arab groups as the showdown between east and west, in which Islam and Chirstianity would clash, with terrible consequences. Two weeks after the battle started, the Marines had inflicted a 22-1 kill ratio and the insurgent leaders were sneaking out of the city dressed as women. This was because the USMC was able to restucture itself to deal with the current conflict instead of just jury rigging the status quo so it would work in the meantime.

We need a major shift in thought here gents, not a slight adjustment of tactics.

All of this is available in the USMC lessons learned, and was further proven on a recent 3VP ex in California.

Hoist that aboard.

 

[KevinB]

I agree with the majority of GO's post - the only issue with the C9/C9A2 clearing is for precision clears it is not a system that acceptable for that - I think you will have to shift in that case - worst case the gunners can come up/in if a precision turns to a straight clearance.

the use of DD's must be reinforced - trained with.  Throwing a pop can filled with sand and hoping the OPFOR will give you a three count before hosing the doorway with sims is not on.

The biggest issue the conventional army has is with our current training restrictions as we can't practice breaches (especially explosive ones) in our facilities.  So the #4 MOE / #5 Medic/Breacher does not get experience.  So when you get shotguns for breaching overseas no one really knows how to properly employ them.  Ditto to the Slegde/Halligan tools etc.

So you get a few NCO's who have the JTFjr UOIC - but it is very hard for them to get them whole team online with entries etc. let alone the related activites.  In our given trg environement.

 

[GO!!!]

The use of C9s for precision clearing is often sold short.

We had some time on the instinctive shooting range last season, and a few of us did the c7 shoot with the c9 - It can be done - with some practice and a bigger guy handling it. Clearing stoppages is not fun though.

Practicing with DDs is a non issue for me. We dont have them, and other than for the secret squirrel types, they are not available - on ops, exercises or anywhere else. Why practice with something we dont use?

As for breaching, a bag of nails, a hammer, and an institutional type place (Griesbach?) is all you need. Breach the door, nail it shut and do it again.

There needs to be something in place for the shotgun and explosive breaching though, even though it is so rarely done.