The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Drallib]

In my opinion you're probably right. The AG tried to tell the PM not to interfere in the SNC Lavallin fiasco and it got her fired.

So who makes the final decision? The PM?

Because there's a team from the RCAF looking at the proposals, from Fighter Pilots to AERE Officers... so say they come back and say "this one  :nod:" do you think the PM would say "but 2 engines  8)" and decides on something else?

 

[Drallib]

Also, I read that there wont be many "milestones" until the winner is announced in 2022, but between now and then there's the initial evaluation until Feb 2021, and then an evaluation of revised proposals from Aug-Nov 2021.

What an exciting team to be a part of, to selecting Canada's next fighter. Knowing that there's a team from the RCAF working in the selection process gives me hope. Then again, this could only make up for that 60% of capability. Not the other 20/20.

 

[dimsum]

Knowing that there's a team from the RCAF working in the selection process gives me hope. Then again, this could only make up for that 60% of capability. Not the other 20/20.

There is a team from the CAF that works in the selection process for every purchase.  For Air Force things, this work is shared between the Directorate of Air Requirements (DAR) and the Project Management Office (PMO).  The Army has Dir Land Reqs (DLR) and Navy has Dir Naval Reqs (DNR) that essentially do the same thing that DAR does.

There are a whole whack of other agencies involved in it as well, but DAR and PMO (in this case) are the big ones from the DND/CAF side.

 

[Drallib]

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the "JSF" thread in the US military section, but it just made me think if Canada will ultimately choose to join all the other very close allies who have decided to purchase the F35 and join that community for the next 30+ years. Interesting read for sure.

The Power of a Growing International F-35 Community

The United States is rapidly building an international community based around the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The military value of such a community is indisputable. The F-35 will be one of the pillars supporting the creation of a new, sensor-rich way of warfare. But as the negotiations that led to the opening of relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) demonstrated, potential international sales of the F-35 can provide significant diplomatic leverage as well. Moreover, experience has shown that operating the same platform and training together can bring militaries closer together.

From the very beginning, the F-35 program was designed to be international. Eight foreign partners – Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and the United Kingdom – invested their own funds in the program in return for participation in R&D and the promise of future work shares. Each of these countries was allowed input into the aircraft's design, and several have provided unique technologies. Turkey, now formally banned from the program over its decision to acquire a Russian air defense system, produced specialized aircraft parts.

Other countries are acquiring the F-35 through the foreign military sales process. Israel, Japan, South Korea, Belgium, Poland and Singapore all are purchasing the F-35 this way, and the UAE looks to be next. There have been reports that the U.S. and India have discussed the possibility of the latter joining the JSF community.

[.....]

There are tremendous advantages for the U.S. and its allies from the growing international F-35 community. Currently, twelve countries have ordered the F-35, either as members of the consortium or through the foreign military sales process. In a number of these countries, the aircraft is already operational; at least one, Israel, has acknowledged its use in combat. The gains in interoperability that go along with the operation of a common platform are important in coalition warfare. In addition, the creation of a multi-national network of F-35 bases, repair facilities and depots, as well as a global supply chain, will support the ability of U.S. and coalition forces to project power rapidly.

[.....]

The JSF price is coming down as production reaches economic ordering quantities, due in part to strong international demand. The benchmark variant's price, the conventional takeoff/landing F-35A, is now down to $80 million per copy, less than the most advanced variant of the F-16. As the unit price declines, more nations will be in a position to acquire the F-35.

[.....]

Once nations enter the program, some have discovered that they like and need the F-35 so much that they decide to buy additional aircraft. Japan upped its requirement from just 42 aircraft to 147, adding both F-35As and the short takeoff/vertical landing F-35B. Israel appears ready to ask to increase by 25 its planned purchase of 50 F-35s. As Russia and China continue to build up their militaries and act more belligerently, other nations may add to the number of F-35s they acquire as well.

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/09/25/the_power_of_a_growing_international_f-35_community_578575.html

 

[Drallib]

Contract for CFB Bagotville

Government awards design contract for future fighter infrastructure in Bagotville

As outlined in Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, the Government of Canada is providing Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel with the infrastructure they require to support their future operations.

On Oct. 2, the Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, announced a $12.1-million contract award to EllisDon-EBC Inc. Joint Venture of Ottawa for the design of a new fighter jet facility at 3 Wing Bagotville, one of two main operating bases for Canada’s future fighter aircraft. This infrastructure, along with the facilities being built at 4 Wing Cold Lake, will support the long-term maintenance and operation of 88 new aircraft being procured for the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) through the Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP).

“Modern infrastructure is a critical step to remaining operationally ready for the future, and this project is another guarantee that we will continue protecting Canadian sovereignty while standing with NORAD and NATO, today and tomorrow,” said Sajjan. “We are well on our way to constructing the modern facilities we need to house our future fighter fleet.”

This contract is an important milestone in preparing Bagotville for the future fighter, and delivering the infrastructure our aviators will need. Both the Cold Lake and Bagotville infrastructure projects will provide significant economic opportunities for the Canadian construction industry, as well as their respective communities. In total, approximately 900 jobs are expected to be created during the design and construction of both facilities.

The Bagotville facility will host two tactical fighter squadrons and will cover approximately 12,500 m2, providing space for daily operations, maintenance, administration, mission planning, and simulator training.

“By investing in infrastructure for the future fighter aircraft and the Canadian Armed Forces, the government is also investing in the Bagotville community,” said Anita Vandenbeld, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence  “The design and construction of this new facility will provide economic benefits for Canadian industry and the Bagotville region, while ensuring our military remains strong, secure, and engaged.”

Quick Facts

-A $9.2-million contract was awarded in August 2020 to EllisDon Construction Services for the design portion of the Cold Lake future fighter infrastructure.
-Construction is expected to begin at both bases in summer 2022.
-Both the Bagotville and Cold Lake design contracts will include options for the contractors to build the new facilities, and any additional infrastructure once the future fighter is selected, should Canada decide to exercise these follow-on options.
-By awarding these infrastructure design contracts now, before the future fighter is selected, necessary work can proceed and bases will be ready for the first aircraft deliveries.
-These facilities will be designed and constructed to Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design Silver standards and will use energy efficient options wherever possible.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases/government-awards-design-contract-for-future-fighter-infrastructure-in-bagotville/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1

 

[MarkOttawa]

DCSA approval of sale of Super Hornet/Growler or F-35A for Finland (if chosen):

Note large numbers (almost as many as RCAF), all-in procurement costs:

1)

Finland – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft and Weapons
https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/finland-fa-18ef-super-hornet-aircraft-and-weapons

2)

Finland – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft with Air-to-Air Missiles and Air-to-Ground Precision Guided Munitions
https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/finland-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft-air-air-missiles-and-air-ground

Mark
Ottawa

 

[suffolkowner]

DCSA approval of sale of Super Hornet/Growler or F-35A for Finland (if chosen):

Note large numbers (almost as many as RCAF), all-in procurement costs:

1)
2)
Mark
Ottawa

And here is Corporalfrisk's in depth analysis of the above

https://corporalfrisk.com/2020/10/11/hx-goes-dsca/#comments

 

[Drallib]

Not sure if this will leverage anything for SAAB now, or if this was already in place when they submitted their 'bid'.

Am I the only one who's beginning to warm up to having the Gripen as Canada's future fighter?

Saab strengthens ties to Canada through CRIAQ partnership

Saab and the Consortium for Research and Innovation in Aerospace in Quebec (CRIAQ) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU).

This collaborative relationship aims to leverage Quebec’s R&D ecosystem’s strengths to encourage the development of collaborative research projects between Saab and Canadian industry, as well as universities and research organizations.

This collaboration has been formed to support Saab’s future Industrial and Technological Benefit (ITB) commitments, if the Gripen fighter is selected for Canada’s Future Fighter Capability Project (FFCP).

“The quality and breadth of aerospace research and innovation in Canada is globally recognised, with the Quebec region home to many excellent companies and institutions. Therefore, it was natural to reach this agreement with an important organisation like CRIAQ. We look forward to working together to benefit research and the fostering of talent in Quebec,” said Jonas Hjelm, senior vice-president and Saab’s head of business area aeronautics.

“During such unsure times within the industry, this partnership demonstrates that the aerospace industry in Quebec and Canada remains attractive and world class. We are very pleased with this signing as we continue to develop our aerospace industry, adding a new global player to our ecosystem. I am convinced that CRIAQ’s academic, industrial and SME community, and the Quebec economy as well, will clearly benefit from this international collaboration,” said Alain Aubertin, CEO of CRIAQ.

The ITB Policy is the government’s main tool for leveraging procurement to create jobs and economic growth in Canada. Saab has submitted an offer of 88 Gripen E fighters for the Canadian FFCP, and a core element of the Gripen industrial offering includes CAE in Montreal, Quebec who will supply training and mission systems solutions.

The MoU was signed in April 2020.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases/saab-strengthens-ties-to-canada-through-criaq-partnership/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-todays-news&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=todays-news&utm_content=V1

 

[dimsum]

I thought CAE also did sims for the F-35 (and perhaps even the Super Hornet)?  There are already a lot of companies in Canada profiting from F-35, so LM can use that for ITBs.  Unsure about Boeing and the Super Hornet.

Also, the Gripen E isn't in service yet, so that adds another issue.  I'm generally skeptical of the line "it'll just be like X - there won't be any issues" because if it's so similar, why didn't they just upgrade the other one while keeping the same model number? 

The other two are at least in operational service somewhere.

 

[dapaterson]

The F-35 "operational" status has enjoyed flexible definitions, and declarations that omit that certain key capabilities are on the roadmap but not yet in production.

I trust no one trying to sell to Defence; I fear that we have trouble.  Right here in River City.  And trouble starts with a T and that rhymes with P and that stands for Plane.

 

[Quirky]

Am I the only one who's beginning to warm up to having the Gripen as Canada's future fighter?

If the Gripen E is chosen it will be for purely political reasons. Nothing that I've seen, heard or read says that's superior to the offering from LM or Boeing, hell our current CF-18 is a better fit in some areas. How it's still in the running considering the Eurofighter and Rafale pulled out is beyond me. They are really trying hard to get this contract and they can smell the blood due to our bastardized procurement process and leadership in Ottawa. On a separate note, I don't know how you can justify to pilot recruits to go jets. It's like showing up to a hockey pick-up game with brand new skates that have never been sharpened out of the box. Maybe flying the best possible equipment is not an issue and all that matters is the fresh paint smell?

 

[lenaitch]

If the Gripen E is chosen it will be for purely political reasons

We have a fairly proud history of that.

 

[Weinie]

If the Gripen E is chosen it will be for purely political reasons. Nothing that I've seen, heard or read says that's superior to the offering from LM or Boeing, hell our current CF-18 is a better fit in some areas. How it's still in the running considering the Eurofighter and Rafale pulled out is beyond me. They are really trying hard to get this contract and they can smell the blood due to our bastardized procurement process and leadership in Ottawa. On a separate note, I don't know how you can justify to pilot recruits to go jets. It's like showing up to a hockey pick-up game with brand new skates that have never been sharpened out of the box. Maybe flying the best possible equipment is not an issue and all that matters is the fresh paint smell?

As I mentioned before, I have a bud flying CF-18's who remarked that he has lots of CF-18 gun sight video with Gripens in the sights.

 

[daftandbarmy]

As I mentioned before, I have a bud flying CF-18's who remarked that he has lots of CF-18 gun sight video with Gripens in the sights.

:rofl:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

As I mentioned before, I have a bud flying CF-18's who remarked that he has lots of CF-18 gun sight video with Gripens in the sights.

As I'm sure there are Gripen pilots with gun camera footage of CF-18s in their sights. :cheers:

 

[Weinie]

As I'm sure there are Gripen pilots with gun camera footage of CF-18s in their sights. :cheers:

I would prefer to procure a fighter that doesn't have any gun camera video of it at all.

 

[GR66]

I would prefer to procure a fighter that doesn't have any gun camera video of it at all.

Oh....so you want this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mrWUrMK5d4&ab_channel=GuardianNews

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We have a fairly proud history of that.

 

[Weinie]

Oh....so you want this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mrWUrMK5d4&ab_channel=GuardianNews

Yeah, I'm a little biased.

Watched it bend the sky at a demo last year from Gatineau.

 

[Drallib]

Yeah, I'm a little biased.

Watched it bend the sky at a demo last year from Gatineau.

The F35 would be awesome. Tbh, I'll be happy with whichever fighter Canada goes with.