The Khadr Thread

[Infanteer]

Why does no one ever complain about the head-chopping (with a dull knife even) A.Q.?!

Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I guess the question is whether the standards are relevent anymore?

 

[Slim]

Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I think that that needs to change.

My $.02 is that the U.S. has shown remarkable restraint in dealing with Iraq. The insurgents (the press can't even call them rebels for f#ck sake) are waging a low-intensity war agains the new Iraqi regeim and the U.S. forces that are backstopping it.

-No uniforms
-No visible rank structure
-No respect or proper treatment of PW's
-No tolerance for anything different.

Unlike Vietnam I believe that the insurgents will ultimately loose this conflict. They'd loose it faster and with aloot less costto the U.S. if the U.S. did "take the gloves off" and became more agressive.

However, all the little monkey's who think that if we just act nice and say please the insurgency will subside, while hamstringing the U.S. military and intelligence apparatus even more. then, when something bad does happen, they scream and bitch that there was some great collosal failure on the part of the military or homeland security.

I don't know what's worse...Those people for talking sh*t in the first place, the press for picking it up and running with it or the average citizen for swallowing it hook line and sinker...

 

[Glorified Ape]

Because we are evaluating our own actions by our own Western standards, not our enemy's actions by our standards or our actions by our enemy's standards.

I guess the question is whether the standards are relevent anymore?

Good point - when we start using the lowest common denominator as our standard of conduct, we've truly reached the bottom.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

I have to agree with ya slim.

You have to wonder how much of a fight the others would put up if they were treated the way they are treating the Americans.  They know that if they are captured they may face some interagation but not torture or be-heading like americans face.  I think if the war was fought using their rules instead of Western ones (even if they are laxed at times) not so many people would sign up to play the game.  

But if we become like them how do you justify it.  How do you justify lowering yourself to that level just this one time?  

Curious for arguments sake how do you?

I don't know the answer, i like to hear your thoughts.

 

[a_majoor]

Answer: we don't, not now and not ever

Ordinary Iraqis are the prime target for the barbaric treatment the Jihadis dish out, just as ordinary Afghanis were subject to the Taliban or ordinary Iranians have to deal with the religious "police". People can be held in check by fear for only so long, what the coalition forces offer by their civilized conduct is hope. While the Jihadis and their fellow travellers are "turned on" by the idea of using a gun to empower themselves at the expense of others (the infamous "Root Cause" of terrorism and crime), more and more we see the ordinary people cooperating with the authorities to root them out of their neighbourhoods.

On a larger scale, this is the same sort of action that led to the Orange revolution in the Ukraine and the current mass demonstrations in Lebanon to push out the Syrians.

If we were to sink to the levels of barbarism the Jihadis exhibit, the Iraqis would withdraw from the coalition in fear and disgust, and perhaps the fear of local terrorists would win out over the fear of the foreign armies. This is not a profitable way to do business.

 

[Blue Max]

Well said a_majoor.  

Remember Wiz, that the criminal acts that some US service members are being accused of, and fewer already convicted of, are overshadowed by the techniques that most other countries in the middle east use to this day, without the light of camera's to shine on their actions.

Its only the 1st world countries that are worried and judged openly on the actions taken by their respective govt.

A worthy high standard to strive for, but not always attained. Notice I did not use the torture word.

B M.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Over shadowed or underscored? 

I think that the western press plays up the American misstreatment of prisioners a lot more then it does the Insuergent beheadings or their torture of the local population.

All i am asking is why do we hold our selves to this higher standard, when our enemy in this case does not play by the same set of rules.

If you can justify playing by the enemies rules how do you?  Would this weaken the insurgents knowing that they would be treated the same way that they are treating others?

Most of the attacks have been against the local population not against Americans although i am sure they are trying.  If you win the hearts of the people (as most would believe) the Americans are doing.  Could you not strike just as harshly against the insurgents without attacking the local population?

Remember this is spark thought not me saying we should start beheading people on national TV.  Eye for an eye type deal.  But how many cheeks do you have to turn.  Could part of this not be seen as weakness by the insurgents on the part of the Americans.

My personal opinion not one i will add here is quite different.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"My personal opinion not one i will add here is quite different."

Where is the fun/constructive debate in that?

 

[Wizard of OZ]

true but i will let my qustions stimiulate the grey matter for now and then when the time is right.  BOOM

 

[Wizard of OZ]

i don't know what is happening here but my computer is posting things twice.  Kinda like that double your airmiles thing, think of how fast i could get my 5th leaf.

 

[Slim]

If the U.S. had sunk to their lever they wouldn't have lost a single person...Just bombed the country out of existance and threatened to do the same to anyone who disagrres with them...But they didn't!

I'm not saying to sink to the same level as the trash that they're fighting...I AM advocating that they become realistic and not be hamstrung by special-interest groups that have no idea what's going on in the country, the war or the minds of their AQ "buddies"

Common sense!

Good point - when we start using the lowest common denominator as our standard of conduct, we've truly reached the bottom.

Ape...You're thinking like a cop when you're supposed to be thinking like a soldier. If that bothers you then I'd suggest a career change...

Slim

 

[Wizard of OZ]

I never thought you said "sink to the level of trash they are fighting" (if that last was directed at me)

In fact I do agree with most of what you have said and along with ape.  I to feel that if we lower our selves to that standard then all we have accomplished since the dawn of our nations goes out in the wash.

But you would have to wonder if they would be less hesitant to attack if they knew that if they were captured nasty things would happen.

The concept of total war is long gone as
1) munitions are to expensive
2) colateral damage makes the front page every time
3) dropping 5 million in bombs and doing 500 bucks in damage (broken mud huts) does not go well for the budget.   

 

[Kurhaus]

Is anyone familiar with the Citizenship act?  But it seems to me that if this kid was involved in an attack on US troops in Afghanistan (who BTW are working with Canadian troops in some AOR's) that this kid has "technically" taken up arms against his country.  I don't see how bailing him out of "Gitmo" is the Cdn governments problem and his lawyers should know that.  But torture crosses the line.  

Now in regards to torture, after reviewing several posts on this forum it seems that many of you have forgotten the reason why the US went into Iraq in the first place.  One reason was threat of Weapons of Mass Destruction but another reason was to "Free the Iraqi people from Sadams brutal rule" (i.e. torture, mass murder, etc)  

So to condone the use of torture as an "approved tactic" in the war on Iraqi insurgents would make the US no better then Sadams regime and go a long way to creating the next generation of terrorists.

 

[George Wallace]

Hope you weren't in court making that statement... ;D

Khadr was captured in Afghanistan.  Don't want him getting off on a technicality.....

 

[48Highlander]

I never thought you said "sink to the level of trash they are fighting" (if that last was directed at me)

In fact I do agree with most of what you have said and along with ape.   I to feel that if we lower our selves to that standard then all we have accomplished since the dawn of our nations goes out in the wash.

But you would have to wonder if they would be less hesitant to attack if they knew that if they were captured nasty things would happen.

The concept of total war is long gone as
1) munitions are to expensive
2) colateral damage makes the front page every time
3) dropping 5 million in bombs and doing 500 bucks in damage (broken mud huts) does not go well for the budget.    

The problem with using torture and "nasty things" is that for some reason they always seem to provide an admission of guilt, along with more names of "suspects" who need to be tortured so we can determine their guilt.  You give a skilled torturer an hour or two and he'll get you any admission you want from any random person you pick.  That pretty much defeats the idea behind our judicial system.  We've already got soldiers and cops trying to be Judge, Jurry, and Executioner, do we really need to encourage more such conduct by sanctioning the torture of prisoners who haven't even been found guilty of anything?

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Ohh agreed with the that fact.

But sometimes fear is a greater weapon then fact.  Why do you think they bag the heads of those captured.  Not always for security.  Has a nasty effect on ones mental process, (like maybe a double tap).

Anyway i do agree that torture is out.  it would totally defeat the purpose of the US being there and us supporting them but to some degree in Iraq i think an eye for an eye has to come into the thoughts of those on the ground. 

Slim

None taken, if my skin was that thin i would not have survived 5 posts on this form.

 

[Slim]

Slim

None taken, if my skin was that thin i would not have survived 5 posts on this form.

;D

 

[Rick_Donald]

Lawyer's = Liar's

 

[Glorified Ape]

Ape...You're thinking like a cop when you're supposed to be thinking like a soldier. If that bothers you then I'd suggest a career change...

Slim

Why? Would you suggest I obey an illegal order or issue such orders to my men? Because that's what I would be doing if I participated in or ordered the practices we're discussing here. I'd say we need fewer people in the forces willing to do that kind of tripe, not more.

I have no problem with employing the dirtiest tactics possible within the boundaries set for me by the CF but little "exceptions" tend to snowball into general practice if they're not nipped in the bud.

 

[Infanteer]

What are we discussing, Torture?

If its torture, Western nations have frowned on it for centuries.   Neither the Police or the Military of a Liberal Democracy should resort to torture - its simply against our principles as Canadian citizens and we'd be doing our Country no service if we did.   There is a reasonable difference between swift and sure justice and unnecessary and cruel punishment.

That being said, I'm willing to bet that Khadr wasn't tortured, he was only interrogated and perhaps, considering who he is, handled roughly.   He's using a typical "4th Generation Warfare" tactic of using our weakness against us - he is playing on Western fears by trying to promote the belief that we're "putting people on the rack and ripping their finger nails out" in order to undermine our resolve.   Piss on him (and his unprincipled lawyers), I say.