The Great Gun Control Debate

[canadianblue]

So there you go, not even the Liberals will take away hunters shotguns and rifles.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Inch, I think your point of the VT shootings might be a little off. It was prob mass confusion, yes maybe 1 of the students if armed might have shot the bad guy, but the if say 10 other people were also armed, they could start shooting each other, and than how would the police have known who the shooter was/is? they would have to treat everyone with a gun the same, (like a criminal and you CCW guys hate that!) it would have made for more confusion. I know if I was armed in that sit, and heard someone shooting , and then tried to shoot the shooter, everyone else with a gun would have been shot too, as I would not have known who the shooter was, know what I mean?

Actually armed students had already stopped a armed gunman at another Virgina school without shooting any bystanders

 

[canadianblue]

Actually armed students had already stopped a armed gunman at another Virgina school without shooting any bystanders

Was that the same one that turned out to be two police officers who also happened to have body armour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Whenever it turns out to be military or police that stopped these shooting I'm not much surprised, as well both tend to have members who would probably use more restraint than your average civilian in my own opinon.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So there you go, not even the Liberals will take away hunters shotguns and rifles.

Wrong, they have already seized people shotguns, this would have resulted in siezing more. Not to mention the handgun ban will be proposed again, then it will another restriction and another. But thats ok with you because they will come for yours last.

yes it was, your point?

 

[canadianblue]

Wrong, they have already seized people shotguns, this would have resulted in siezing more.

Why did they seize peoples shotguns? Was it because they weren't following the law?

Not to mention the handgun ban will be proposed again, then it will another restriction and another.

The handgun ban wouldn't have done much anyway. Besides, speaking from my own experience, my brother has been able to obtain 5 guns despite the fascist government.

But thats ok with you because they will come for yours last.

I work for the military, so I doubt they'll take away our weapons.

yes it was, your point?

They weren't just students, they also happened to be sworn police officers. So that defeats the notion that having a large gun toting population will be the golden ticket to reducing school shootings. It largely confirms the idea that the police can help fight crime and prevent further violence. Perhaps we should hire more police officers instead.

 

[Inch]

I don't think you should be giving us a lecture on fear when you feel the need to be armed to even step outside of your house, but thats my own opinion. Really nobody is trying to take away duck hunters shotguns here, what I'm arguing is that first of all we don't need CCW, and second registering a gun isn't really infringing your freedom.

I'm not lecturing you on fear, I'm just saying that under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Section 7, I have to right to self defense. Why, as a law abiding citizen, can I not have the tools to defend myself?

Yes so the system must be able to filter out some of the whackjobs out there. I'd prefer the current system over a system which sells guns as freely as ice cream.

I agree, guns shouldn't be sold freely as ice cream and none of the pro-gun posts in this thread have advocated that owning guns should be easier. We just disagree with a registry that does nothing to prevent crime. Handguns have been registered since the 1930s and handgun crime has been on the rise ever since. A registry doesn't control crime, all it tells you is who is abiding by the law to register. Nothing more.

Yeah, imagine how much better High Schools, Universities, and Elementary Schools would be if more people carried guns. Kids and guns, a perfect combination.

Who said anything about giving kids guns?

So did you break the law?

Nope, and nor do I have to for the police (and firearms officer) to come and search my house.

INSPECTION
Definition of “inspector”

101. In sections 102 to 105, "inspector" means a firearms officer and includes, in respect of a province, a member of a class of individuals designated by the provincial minister.

Inspection

102. (1) Subject to section 104, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with this Act and the regulations, an inspector may at any reasonable time enter and inspect any place where the inspector believes on reasonable grounds a business is being carried on or there is a record of a business, any place in which the inspector believes on reasonable grounds there is a gun collection or a record in relation to a gun collection or any place in which the inspector believes on reasonable grounds there is a prohibited firearm or there are more than 10 firearms and may

(a) open any container that the inspector believes on reasonable grounds contains a firearm or other thing in respect of which this Act or the regulations apply;

(b) examine any firearm and examine any other thing that the inspector finds and take samples of it;

(c) conduct any tests or analyses or take any measurements; and

(d) require any person to produce for examination or copying any records, books of account or other documents that the inspector believes on reasonable grounds contain information that is relevant to the enforcement of this Act or the regulations.

By that same logic we should start legalizing all drugs.

Uh, nope. Owning or carrying guns in no way affects my mental state, nor do they cause any undue burden on the health care system.

Unless you make a grave mistake and accidently shoot someone who you perceived to be a threat who may have just happened to be mentally ill.

Not my problem, if I feel there is a sudden and overwhelming threat to the security of my person, I can act in self defence. It doesn't matter why they threatened me, only that they did.

 

[technofixit]

Good job Inch!  I agree with your stance on having the right to self-defence, and the right to Carry if you wish.  Also good of you to bring
up the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the portion of the firearms act that deals with inspections.  That portion of the act gives
inspectors broad powers which I consider as charter violations.

Just because you happen to lawfully own 10 or more firearms and mind your own business an inspector can:

1) Enter your home without a warrant
2) Look anywhere he wishes for firearms
3) You have to answer all his questions during the inspection without having legal council present, and wonder if you're unintentionally digging yourself into a hole

I am curious to know why the Liberals didn't grant "inspectors" similar powers for searching the homes of known drug dealers or known
violent offenders?  Perhaps it's because the Liberals knew someone would cause a big legal stink and overturn the whole mess in court.
I am curious to know if anyone has challenged the inspection portion of the firearms act, and what the outcome was?

 

[1feral1]

Meanwhile in Australia....

A friend of mine had the cops come by for an inspection of his firearms in Sydney recently.

It was 0450h on a Tuesday without any notification or warning.

Talk about an agreed convenient time!

Totally suprised, and outragous.

In this country it can happen any time.

Thats bullshyte!


Cheers,

Wes

 

[Inch]

I am curious to know if anyone has challenged the inspection portion of the firearms act, and what the outcome was?

http://brucemontague.ca/html/index.html

Bruce Montague is currently putting in his Charter challenge with the Ontario Supreme Court. No outcome as of yet.

 

[technofixit]

I checked out Bruce's webpage, he definitely make some good points about licensing and registration.
Registration of firearms is a bad idea,  as it creates a list of what law abiding citizens own.  Someone
can use the list to confiscate firearms at a later date, and it also presents a fine target for computer
hackers and criminals.  Licensing is no better either.  The way I look at it, complete your firearms safety
course, bring your successfully completed exam forms and government issued ID to the gun shop, the
gun shop phones police so they can do a background check on you.  If everything works out ok, then
pick the firearm of your choice.  Doing things like this would help to ensure that qualified law abiding
citizens can purchase a firearm in a gun shop without the bureaucratic mess we have now.  The opinions
of certain Canadian political parties with regards to law abiding citizens owning firearms has me wishing
there was no paper trail back to my gun locker.

 

[Scott]

SiG_22_Qc,

If you wish to post in this thread please ensure it makes sense and is legible. If you discover a post deleted DO NOT re post it.

Patience is wearing thin.

Scott
Army.ca Staff

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And before anyone says it's won't happen. This is the model Rock and the lieberals used to put their program together. The same one they tout today as workable, honourable and trustworthy.

(Sorry, long read ahead)

http://www.bromleytimes.co.uk/conten...A08%3A29%3A253

'I was portrayed as one of Britain's biggest illegal
gun dealers'

11 July 2007

TODAY a gun dealer who proved his innocence slams a police investigation that left him to suffer an agonising ten-month wait in custody in two of London's toughest jails.

Michael Shepherd, 56, faced 32 years in prison after being arrested in September last year following an 18-month operation by the Met police's anti-gun crime Trident squad.

The raid on his house opposite a primary school in Dartford uncovered a haul of 900 weapons and about 4,000 rounds of ammunition.

Officers believed they were part of a world wideillegal gun trafficking cartel and linked to north London murders. If he was convicted he would most likely have died in jail.

He reveals Kent Police visited his home and renewed his firearms licence just two weeks before he was arrested for allegedly dealing illegal weapons. The father-of-two also claims Trident, a Metropolitan police initiative to tackle black on black gun crime,
is failing to infiltrate the illegal gun trade.

He also accuses the police of pursuing him to show the public they are winning the fight against crime involving illegal firearms.

Speaking from his ransacked home, he said: "Every single one of the guns I had stored in my house, about 900 in all, are legal to own and sell.

"Every one of them! It is as simple as that. About two or three weeks before I was arrested and thrown in jail I had Kent Police officers stand in that building
amongst all my guns and they renewed my RFD (Registered Firearms Dealers licence). You can imagine the shock when police calmly knocked on my door with
the world's media watching and portrayed me as one of the country's biggest criminal gun dealers they had ever arrested."

This week Kent Police confirmed they had visited his home, stood amongst his haul of legal firearms and renewed the licence as the operation by Trident came to a dramatic end with his arrest.

A spokesperson said: "Kent Police carried out all the inspections that we are legally authorized to do as a firearms dealer and certificate holder and no weapons
were found that he was not allowed to have and no prohibited weapons were recovered from inside his premises."

Mr Shepherd added: "Surely the visit by Kent Police is proof enough by weapons are legal.

"My arrest was overwhelming at first but I knew I had done nothing wrong and I kept explaining they were welcome to check out all the guns. They were hanging on walls in the house and locked for security.

"The keys were there for them to open but they just hacked them off and took them down. I was taken away under a blanket and unknown to me was being labelled
Trident's biggest ever scalp. As I was held for six days they searched my house. This was there chance to show the world they are tackling illegal gun crime.
What they did not realise and had they done their homework they would have, all my guns are perfectly legal. They could have asked Kent Police that. I
cannot believe their investigation resulted in me spending so long in prison for something I was clearly innocent of and not to mention the tens of thousands this investigation must have cost."

"Although they had me under surveillance and investigation for about 18 months they did not realize everything you could buy from me you could go in to a newsagents pick up a magazine called Gun Mart and order it from them.

"They raided my mother's place in Bexleyheath. She is very ill and suffers from Alzheimer's. She had no idea what was going on, she did not know what time of day
it was. This whole ordeal has been harder for my family on the outside than me. To put my mother  through that is disgusting. They could have come round and gone through all my guns they did not need this big raid. It was all for show. There was no armed police when I was arrested. Why not? If I was supposed to be such a ruthless gun dealer with the biggest arms haul ever why did that not need an armed response?

Last month the father-of-two was found not guilty of 13 gun related charges at the Old Bailey. Ten other charges were either dropped or the judge ordered the jury to return not guilty verdicts.

Flicking through a scrapbook that his daughter, Connie, has made of newspaper reports during the time of his arrest, his sheer disbelief of what has happened is etched on his face.

Mr Shepherd blasted: "This is what has given the gun community a bad name. We have been persecuted for years to the extent were people now think if they see or hear about guns it is to do with terrible murders and armed robberies. Illegal guns are dangerous and in  the wrong hands people will kill with them but they will not come to someone like me to get them. I would be the first congratulating Trident if they seized 900 illegal guns but they didn't. Why would a killer buy an antique weapon from me for £2,000 when you can get a sub-machine gun or Mac 10 and Uzis for a few hundred quid off the street. Those two girls who were shot dead outside the hairdressers in Manchester were not killed by a collector's gun. The weapons were probably smuggled in the country via the ports, sold for next to nothing and then used in this tragedy. This is where the first line of defence should be centred.

"I have spent 10 months in jail on remand for a crime I did not commit, all my assets were frozen and for what. It is early days and you have to consider compensation and that is a matter for myself but I can never get those 10 months of my life back."

Although he faced a life sentence the Elvis fanatic, who dresses in 1950s Teddy Boy-style clothes, cannot help to crack a smile as he pores over the extensive Forensic Science Service report compiled on July 10 last year - two months before his arrest.

Referring to a 32.44 pistol, purchased by an undercover cop that was supposedly an illegal firearm,  author Ronald Nicholas Gibbs BSC (Hons) writes: "In my opinion, the revolvers PHG/1 (evidence ref) and PHG/2 (evidence ref) were chambered for calibres of
cartridge which appear on the Home Office list of'obsolete calibres'. In my opinion if these revolvers were possessed as curiosities or ornaments, they could be regarded as antique firearms and benefit from exemption from firearms certificate procedure." This
means the gun is perfectly legal and Mr Shepherd is baffled as to why this report did not result in the investigation being dropped.

Further down the report it details an antique gun the same expert conducted research in to regarding its legality claiming it could only be fired if "the trigger was pulled while hitting the hammer with a mallet." It is hardly the weapon of choice for a north London murderer or hardened gangster.

Mr Shepherd added: "I read through this report produced by one of the police experts which is basically telling them that all the guns are legal and I am mystified how this raid on my house was even given the go-ahead. It is laughable. What half decent criminal would buy a gun, pull it on someone and then bash the hammer with a mallet to shoot them.

"I was portrayed as conspiring with the undercover police to sell him guns to kill and that I was aware he was not a collector. I took the chap shooting twice, we talked about him having a place to shoot and how he was 'serious about clay pigeon'. How is this dealing to a man I believe is going to kill someone or commit robbery.

"If you buy a car from a dealer and drive down the road and kill someone doing 100 miles per hour is that the dealers fault because he did not tell you it was illegal to drive over 70. It may be simplifying it but it is true. I should never have even been arrested,
let alone held in prison and refused bail while all my assets were seized."

Mr Shepherd coped with his time on remand by gaining mutual respect from inmates but said it was a time he would never forget. He was kept going by support from family and friends and by sketching drawings of his cell, the view from his barred window and his
favourite stars like Clint Eastwood and Captain Jack Sparrow (Johnny Depp) from Pirates of the Caribbean and Buddy Holly.

He spent four months in Pentonville Prison before he was transferred to Belmarsh as his trial approached, but said the 10 months on remand had a worse toll on his family than himself.

During his stay he was forced to wear a green and yellow suit because he was considered a lifer and spent time in segregation.

He said: "When I was arrested I kept thinking all the guns are legal, I know that for sure, so I will be released but then I was refused bail.

"In prison I just tried to switch off and wait for my trial so I could be cleared. I never doubted the jury system or the fact that justice would be done and I
would be cleared.

"However, that did not mean prison was nice it is a very degrading place. I would have to take my boxer shorts down and lift my shirt to show I had nothing concealed on me. You had to strip and squat so they could check you out. I had to be with three people when I was allowed out of the block for exercise.

"Two people hung themselves in prison and one kept self-harming and slashing himself there was blood everywhere.

"But I gave respect to people. You have to give it to receive it. They (prisoners) all knew who I was when I arrived and they made Elvis jokes and talked about the news coverage. I had offers to sell all my guns when I got out to a few of the inmates.

"I was an enhanced prisoner during my stay so I was given better jobs and I did a lot of drawing."

Since his release, Mick Shepherd is still waiting the return of his 900 gun collection from the Met, thought to be worth over £250,000 and his gun licence. He still has no identification and has now been suspended from his job.

Having worked for Greenwich council for over 30 years as a carpenter he bizarrely received just £2.88 per week while in prison. Upon release he was informed he would be suspended on full pay pending an investigation.

He added: "It's a bit weird considering I am innocent but it's a blessing in disguise really because I have so much to sort out."

The gun dealer now hopes he can get on with his life and change the tainted image of guns and shooting.

He added: "Since the Dunblane and Hungerford massacre the shooting community has been persecuted, new laws have been passed and the sport is being vilified. As
tragic as both these cases are they were illegal firearms in criminal hands. If someone wanted to do it
again today they could. Illegal gun crime has nothing to do with the shooting community and something we cannot be held accountable for.

"Shooting has always been a passion of mine and something I have pursued since a kid like my passion for Elvis and his music. It is such a shame in this country that I cannot be left to pursue my interests without being dragged through the courts and held in prison for something I was clearly innocent of.

"Years ago Dartford and the surrounding area had five shooting clubs, now it has three and there is never anything illegal going on. You don't see police down there but you see hundreds at football matches so you tell me who the risk is to the public?

"The government and police do not like guns but it is the illegal guns in the hands of criminals that kill."

A Greenwich Council spokesperson said they were unable to discuss or divulge employment and financial details of employees.

 

[technofixit]

Interesting article, but hardly surprising given how paranoid people in authority can be over there.  He got screwed over twice by the authorities too, jail time in the
worst ones possible, and probably had to fund his defence out of his own pocket.  Even though he wasn't convicted, he sure was punished.  Hopefully he gets his
council job back.

"Years ago Dartford and the surrounding area had five shooting clubs, now it has three and there is never anything illegal going on.
Get rid of the gun clubs and shooting ranges, that way sport shooters don't need their guns and we can confiscate them.  Is this being looked at in anti-gun Ontario,
with the range closures that were going on?

"The government and police do not like guns but it is the illegal guns in the hands of criminals that kill."
Liberals view all guns in anybody's hands as unlawful, what you use them for is irrelevant to the Libs.  I guess politicians in England have the same take on this too.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

author=Sigs Guy link=topic=28692/post-588388#msg588388 date=1184277875]

Why did they seize peoples shotguns? Was it because they weren't following the law?

No the government deemed them to dangerous for the public to own, and made them prohib

see here:
Former Prohibited Weapons Order No. 11
The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS-12 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Franchi LAW 12 shotgun.
The firearm of the design commonly known as the Striker shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Striker 12 shotgun and the Streetsweeper shotgun.
The firearm of the design commonly known as the USAS-12 Auto Shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
The firearm of the design commonly known as the Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun, and any variant or modified version of it.
The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Benelli M1 Super 90 shotgun and the Benelli M3 Super 90 shotgun, and any variants or modified versions of them, with the exception of the:


M1 Super 90 Field;
M1 Super 90 Sporting Special;
Montefeltro Super 90;
Montefeltro Super 90 Standard Hunter;
Montefeltro Super 90 Left Hand;
Montefeltro Super 90 Turkey;
Montefeltro Super 90 Uplander;
Montefeltro Super 90 Slug;
Montefeltro Super 90 20 Gauge;
Black Eagle;
Black Eagle Limited Edition;
Black Eagle Competition;
Black Eagle Slug Gun;
Super Black Eagle; and
Super Black Eagle Custom Slug.


The firearms of the designs commonly known as the Bernardelli B4 shotgun and the Bernardelli B4/B shotgun, and any variants or modified versions of them.

The handgun ban wouldn't have done much anyway. Besides, speaking from my own experience, my brother has been able to obtain 5 guns despite the fascist government.

All of which would have to be turned in for whatever price the government deemed them to be worth, although they might have not done that. By this line I can clearly see you have absolutely no concept of what is going on in regards to the laws or the politics behind them.

I work for the military, so I doubt they'll take away our weapons.

So the rest of us can suffer because it doesn't affect you?

They weren't just students, they also happened to be sworn police officers. So that defeats the notion that having a large gun toting population will be the golden ticket to reducing school shootings. It largely confirms the idea that the police can help fight crime and prevent further violence. Perhaps we should hire more police officers instead.

No they were students who happened to also to be LEO's. You also forget that in Canada these officers would not be armed as almost every department discourges or bars their officers from taking their duty pistol home. The same attitude that says no CCW for the citizens also does not trust oddity police officers.

So where are these new officers coming from? Most departments are crying for recruits and even if they can get up to their current manpower, they are short training dollars, operational dollars, and OT monies.


I realize you will look down at the source because in your mind the NRA could never produce anything worthwhile, just remember they are the most effective firearm organization in the world:

The Life / Death Clock attempts to add real perspective to the discussion
of the social costs/benefits of gun ownership in America.

http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/lifeclock/

This site might educate you on how complex CCW is in the US and what a person must keep up with to remain lawful:

http://www.packing.org/

 

[technofixit]

I can understand why the SPAS 12 and Streetsweeper shotguns were prohibited, after all they're black, look really evil, weigh about 10lbs at least, and you can't hide one under a ski jacket on your way into a bank.  If you wanted to spend a few grand on the Mercedes Benz of shotguns why should the government care as long as they get their tax cut.  What's with the Montefeltro Turkey 90 and the Uplander though?  Did the government of the day think some guy was going to shoot up all those frozen turkeys in the deli department on Thanksgiving day?

 

[canadianblue]

Uh, nope. Owning or carrying guns in no way affects my mental state, nor do they cause any undue burden on the health care system.

Actually, firearms proliferation does cause a burden on the healthcare system. As for drugs, if your not hurting anyone you should be able to do whatever you want correct?

No they were students who happened to also to be LEO's. You also forget that in Canada these officers would not be armed as almost every department discourges or bars their officers from taking their duty pistol home. The same attitude that says no CCW for the citizens also does not trust oddity police officers.

Actually on a topic on blueline, most police officers there said they wouldn't want to carry their firearms around off duty.

All of which would have to be turned in for whatever price the government deemed them to be worth, although they might have not done that. By this line I can clearly see you have absolutely no concept of what is going on in regards to the laws or the politics behind them.

You mean the undercover fascist regime aiming to take away guns from farmers/hunters? With all of the nazi comparisons this is the best I could come up with.

I realize you will look down at the source because in your mind the NRA could never produce anything worthwhile, just remember they are the most effective firearm organization in the world:

The NRA, ensuring that mentally unstable people can get firearms as quickly and easily as possible for over a century.

This site might educate you on how complex CCW is in the US and what a person must keep up with to remain lawful:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Actually, firearms proliferation does cause a burden on the healthcare system. As for drugs, if your not hurting anyone you should be able to do whatever you want correct?

Actually on a topic on blueline, most police officers there said they wouldn't want to carry their firearms around off duty.

You mean the undercover fascist regime aiming to take away guns from farmers/hunters? With all of the nazi comparisons this is the best I could come up with.

The NRA, ensuring that mentally unstable people can get firearms as quickly and easily as possible for over a century.

Like I said earlier about painting with a broad brush...............you've just proven your bias and are not worth engaging. You do not want discussion, or fact. Your last post read like 'The ABC's of Internet Trolling.'

 

[2 Cdo]

Like I said earlier about painting with a broad brush...............you've just proven your bias and are not worth engaging. You do not want discussion, or fact. Your last post read like 'The ABC's of Internet Trolling.'

Unfortunately his rather narrow, uninformed opinion seems to be the norm in Canada, including unfortunately, some members of the Forces. :

 

[Inch]

Actually, firearms proliferation does cause a burden on the healthcare system. As for drugs, if your not hurting anyone you should be able to do whatever you want correct?

Elaborate, and I want links.

I'll go first.

How much time and money goes into treating overdoses or addiction? Quite a bit I would suspect.

As for not hurting anyone, you think that people don't get hopped up and drive?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dcf/enforce.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/guncrimetab.htm

Almost 2 million arrests for drug abuse violations which was more than drinking and driving arrests. In the same year (2005), there were not quite 400,000 crimes committed with firearms in the US, by my math, drugs are at the root of the problem 5 times more often than guns. Victimless my ass.

You really don't get it do you?

 

[Rowshambow]

not to jump on top too, Sigs as I don't believe in CCW, but I think if there wasn't any drugs, allot of crime would go down, and then you wouldn't see as many people against guns (as a whole)