The Great Gun Control Debate

[josh]

Every loss, of freedom or property, to any citizen, whether directly affected or not, is a loss of freedom to all. Especially when not challenged by the citizens that enabled the government in the first place.

Vote them out of office then, since they were elected democratically in the first place.  Until you do, that's your problem.  Learn to live with it. 

 

[GAP]

Vote them out of office then, since they were elected democratically in the first place.  Until you do, that's your problem.  Learn to live with it. 

Did you read  and comprehend what Recceguy said?  :brickwall:

 

[josh]

  :brickwall:

Until you can change the laws of this country, you can bang your head all you want.  It won't make any difference.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Vote them out of office then, since they were elected democratically in the first place.  Until you do, that's your problem.  Learn to live with it. 

Until you can change the laws of this country, you can bang your head all you want.  It won't make any difference.

I see. Your statements(?) keep stipulating you, not we. So it's all up to the other guy. You have no stake in this, I take it? Exactly the point I was making above, that seems to have eluded you. Nonsensical one liners don't add, but subtract from your position and make your contribution irrelevant. At least to people that want to discuss this with a modicum of knowledge, passion and a willingness to clarify and rectify the situations we have today.

If you wish to debate me or agree with me, I don't mind either way. However, please don't quote me so you can post some self serving, smug comment that has little bearing in the real world, just to make yourself feel good. If you wish to prostitute me, you'll have to pay the going price.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IF you do not believe in the right of self defence. If you do not think Canadians should be allowed to own and possess firearms. If you do not belive we should be allowed to conceal carry for defence, you should ask yourself the following questions.........and answer truthfully, to yourself.

• If guns are effective enough to be a criminal's preferred tool, why are they not good enough to use for protection?

• Why do politicians insist their bodyguards be armed, but not you and I?

• If you and your children were face to face with a male attacker twice your size, what would you do; If you weren't armed? If you were armed?

• If guns are "too dangerous" to be in our society, how come our leaders want to be the only ones who have them? Do you trust our leaders implicitly to protect you at all times?

• Which is better – more gun control and the eventual banning of all guns in our society, or not sitting by helplessly watching as an intruder repeatedly rapes your 13-year-old daughter?

• Do you believe that if your home is invaded, and if you have time to dial 911, that the police will respond and save you in the approximately eight seconds it will take the intruder to murder you, and then go after your family at leisure?

• If we ever completely ban guns, do you think there will be no more armed criminals in Canada?

• With so many gun laws already on the books, why do "gun crimes" still exist?


I have no problem withour brave men and women in blue. However, the motto 'To Serve and Protect" should be replaced with 'To Serve and Investigate".

I have an inalienable right to self defence of my family and self. I simple want to have, at least, the same mechanical advantage that the low life miscreant that is attacking me has.

 

[Fry]

IF you do not believe in the right of self defence. If you do not think Canadians should be allowed to own and possess firearms. If you do not belive we should be allowed to conceal carry for defence, you should ask yourself the following questions.........and answer truthfully, to yourself.

• If guns are effective enough to be a criminal's preferred tool, why are they not good enough to use for protection?

• Why do politicians insist their bodyguards be armed, but not you and I?

• If you and your children were face to face with a male attacker twice your size, what would you do; If you weren't armed? If you were armed?

• If guns are "too dangerous" to be in our society, how come our leaders want to be the only ones who have them? Do you trust our leaders implicitly to protect you at all times?

• Which is better – more gun control and the eventual banning of all guns in our society, or not sitting by helplessly watching as an intruder repeatedly rapes your 13-year-old daughter?

• Do you believe that if your home is invaded, and if you have time to dial 911, that the police will respond and save you in the approximately eight seconds it will take the intruder to murder you, and then go after your family at leisure?

• If we ever completely ban guns, do you think there will be no more armed criminals in Canada?

• With so many gun laws already on the books, why do "gun crimes" still exist?


I have no problem withour brave men and women in blue. However, the motto 'To Serve and Protect" should be replaced with 'To Serve and Investigate".

I have an inalienable right to self defence of my family and self. I simple want to have, at least, the same mechanical advantage that the low life miscreant that is attacking me has.

*Applauding*

recceguy for PM!

And... a pro CCW! We certainly need more. Prehaps some day we'll overcome the bleeding heart lieberals... some day. As for Josh... if anyone who had an issue had the "ahh let the other guy do it, they can do it without me" mentality, we wouldn't have even half of the 'luxuries' today that we have. I'm surprised that they haven't taken our 'black guns' or even my semi .22 . WE need to ban together and voice our concerns.

If I had it my way, there'd be CCW, permitting applicants pass a specific course and are deemed fit to carry concealed. Prohibs wouldn't be so much prohibited. A proper course and extensive background and suitability check could be in place... I disagree with the fact that if you weren't old enough to grandfather, you can't have it. That's just crap.

I know one thing. What we currently have in place isn't working. We need more people like recceguy to speak out like that. If you can't, then make a donation to the CSSA, join them. They're an effective group and their work is greatly appreciated.

Wanting protection isn't paranoid, like a lot of the anti's try to pass it off as being paranoid. Legally carrying concealed should be considered insurance. In case sh*t happens. Most of the calls that our fine LE personnel attend to are after the fact. It may never happen, ever... but it might. If CCW saves one life, I'm for it.

 

[1feral1]

I don't think you'll ever see CCW's in Canada no matter who you elect, ever!

I am right winged, pro gun, pro western European immigration, anti a few things that are not PC, which I won't mention on here, but I would draw the line at CCW's for the law abiding public in Canada. Canada is NOT Texas, we don't have a constitution and a right to bear arms, as owning such in Canada is a privillage, like owning a car.

Its not in our culture to be wearing guns tucked neatly in our pants, and I would not want a society that was allowed such, mind you, carry permits for un-concealed hand guns on one's own land for target practice, or to be used in ones occupation, say a geologist, in the far north for protection from animals, that I can comprehend, even the ownership of machineguns for bonified collections and club organised shooting, but an open CCW in down town Saskatoon, or Vancouver for that matter, well I think thats insane, and inviting an incident.

As for Mr Fry, your young, inexperienced, and it shows. Personally Fry, you are appearing to me to have some type of a twisted obsession, and frankly, that scares me. I would not be feeling comfortable to give you a bananna to hold. No I am not having a go at you, just giving you a reality check, nothing more. Just remember, taking someone's life is not a movie or a TV show, and the trauma shockwave from doing such can last you the rest of your days, regardless if he had it coming or not. The macho-coolness of dropping a guy in your kitchen ends pretty bloody quick, and you life is changed forever ( as is your family's and all who know you, your neighbours and friends).

I am all for protecting ones life, the lives of others, but NOT his property, and protecting one's life with any means necessary, and using any justifiable force required to subdue an intruder, as in what the CC states. So what about your kids in the house, and safe storage? How does one access a pistol in a matter of seconds? Ya, there is concealed 'drop' safes' with easy access, but these must be considered, and this opens up a worms nest of both pros and cons. You can't have a lever action .30-30, with 7 rds of 150gr KKSP in the mag, leaning behind the bedroom door. That is unsafe, and could end up being used against you in the event of a break-in or home invasion.

I am for licensed shooters, but no the registration of long arms. A registered handgun is a registered hand gun, and a bbl length less than 100mm is irrevelant, so I cannot figure out the government's prohibiting and grandfathering for example on my 9mm P-08 'Luger', shy of just the beginning of the grab. The Canadian gun laws of pre 1994 were fine, and I lived with them comfortably.

Be rest assured Canucks, over the oncoming years, the gun laws will continue to get tighter, and more red tape created until they finally get them, and the only people that will have guns in Canada will be the Police, the Defence Force, and yes, the criminals.

Not long ago, Australians had a similar model of gun laws, in fact some less restricted than pre 1994 Canada, and look what happened here. No more pump shotguns, no more semi auto rifles of any calibre, no more hand guns greater than 9mm, and whats next??? Rumour net says all handguns period! My prediction?? Its just a matter of time.

Enjoy 'em while you still got 'em.

A few of my thoughts,

Wes

EDITed for clarification

 

[Fry]

As for Mr Fry, your young, inexperienced, and it shows. Personally Fry, you are appearing to me to have some type of a twisted obsession, and frankly, that scares me. I would not be feeling comfortable to give you a bananna to hold. No I am not having a go at you, just giving you a reality check, nothing more. Just remember, taking someone's life is not a movie or a TV show, and the trauma shockwave from doing such can last you the rest of your days, regardless if he had it coming or not. The macho-coolness of dropping a guy in your kitchen ends pretty bloody quick, and you life is changed forever.

I am all for protecting ones life, the lives of others, but NOT his property, and protecting one's life with any means necessary, and using any justifiable force required to subdue an intruder, as in what the CC states.

I need no reality check. The world we live in is very real, even on the home front. Just because I haven't been overseas or haven't been in combat and am not in a military of any sort right now doesn't mean that I'm this uneducated, senseless hick that you've pegged me to be. The only twisted obsession is your constant attempts to disect my posts and totally twist what I've said. Before this starts into another pissing contest, throwing this topic off course, I'm out of this. Have fun Wes.

 

[Greymatters]

Speaking stictly to Wes's point, too true.  It is all-too-easy for enforcement departments to target the law-abiding portion of society thus showing 'results'.  It is difficult to target the non-law-abiding because, hey they're not law-abiding and tend to hide stuff on you.

 

[1feral1]

I need no reality check. The world we live in is very real, even on the home front. Just because I haven't been overseas or haven't been in combat and am not in a military of any sort right now doesn't mean that I'm this uneducated, senseless hick that you've pegged me to be. The only twisted obsession is your constant attempts to disect my posts and totally twist what I've said. Before this starts into another pissing contest, throwing this topic off ,course, I'm out of this. Have fun Wes.

Fry,

My above post was my opinion on CCWs in Canada.

As stated I was not having a go at you.

10's of 1000's of leagal gun owners coast to coast have a healthy attitude towards their equipment, and have something called MATURITY and common sense (ya, and no time on Ops), and can use it effectively, and more importantly confidently with safety foremost.

To me, attitude means everything, and with you I sense some hostile issues. Honestly, you should have taken what I said to heart and learn from it, instead, you have acted EXACTLY as I thought you would, and this proves exactly what I stated WRT the bananna. I solidly stand by that now. Remember that integrity question I mentioned? There is more to life then guns Fry, don't fall into that rut, don't play a role which can envelop you into places you don't want even to go. Don't pretend to be somebody you are not.

Quoting your Grandfather "to much of anything isn't good for you".

Any further reference to this off-topic can be directed via PM to myself if you so desire.



Wes

 

[josh]

• Which is better – more gun control and the eventual banning of all guns in our society, or not sitting by helplessly watching as an intruder repeatedly rapes your 13-year-old daughter?

Where do you come up with this copy-and-paste drivel, Wikipedia? Gimme a break.  :

If you're that obsessed about owning weapons and Canada's current gun laws, go strap on a clap-board, jump up and down on Parliament Hill with a megaphone, and hope that in the next election the majority of Canadians agrees with your views.  Until that happens, remember these famous words, "suck it up buttercup."  Now go register your guns like a good little boy before someone calls the police.  Ownership is a priviledge, not a right - we all learned that growing up, didn't we?

 

[Rowshambow]

I don't like gun registry, even if you register the weapon, you could still use it to kill someone, a piece of paper is not going to stop or slow down a bullet. A criminal prob will not register his weapon so all that money would be spent on keeping an eye on legal owners, I think the money should have gone to better border and policing, and yes stiffer penalties for those who are found guilty. You have to make it so hard for the criminals, that they don't want to come back to a jail! I like the idea of Hans Island like I read in another thread, no TV, no gym etc! If someone wants to kill someone they will do it! I also don't like the thought of people walking around with concealed weapons, same reason as above.
I have 2 daughters, and if anyone ever thought about raping (no matter how big they are) I would kick the living crap out of them!!!, I would not need a gun, just my hands, or whatever I could get my hands on, lamp, barbie etc!!
Also if I did have a weapon in my house how is that a deterrent, unless I have a big sign outside stating so, and then I wouldn't need a gun, just a big sign!?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCW already exists in Canada

Commonly referred to as ATC III

However it is almost impossible to get and the they will not release information on how many or who. So far a few judges and prosecutors have admitted to having one and it also appears that some bad guys who turn evidence to the crown might have also gotten a permit.

To obtain this permit, one must show competence with the firearm and show that you are in imminent threat of harm, of course if you are still alive by the time they review your permit, clearly you don’t need it!!  There are a number of people applying for them and seeing what happens. Even in the US I think the number of people with CCW is around 4% of the population. The good thing is that problems predicted by the naysayers have not happened. The number of permits issued in the US is doubling, mainly woman and the elderly. 

ATC I
Is for open carry of a sidearm in a remote area, normally geologists, etc

ATCII
For armoured car personal

If they sort out the Utah permiting stuff, I will get mine and I also understand that Florida will issue permits to Canadians living down there.

 

[1feral1]

CCW already exists in Canada

Commonly referred to as ATC III

However it is almost impossible to get and the they will not release information on how many or who. So far a few judges and prosecutors have admitted to having one and it also appears that some bad guys who turn evidence to the crown might have also gotten a permit.

To obtain this permit, one must show competence with the firearm and show that you are in imminent threat of harm, of course if you are still alive by the time they review your permit, clearly you don’t need it!!  There are a number of people applying for them and seeing what happens. Even in the US I think the number of people with CCW is around 4% of the population. The good thing is that problems predicted by the naysayers have not happened. The number of permits issued in the US is doubling, mainly woman and the elderly.   

ATC I
Is for open carry of a sidearm in a remote area, normally geologists, etc

ATCII
For armoured car personal

If they sort out the Utah permiting stuff, I will get mine and I also understand that Florida will issue permits to Canadians living down there.

I was talking CCWs for the general public. On a permit for armoured crews, It states right on it "not to be concealed", "to be kept secured in a holster", and "must be in uniform" or it did on mine in Saskatchewan anyways.

I had a friend who was a geologist in northern Saskatchewan. In the 80's he had a permit, again stating "not to be concealed".

Colin, I don't have a problem even for CCWs for Judges or anyone in a lawful occupation where such occupations are life threatnening, but for Joe Blow on the corner of Portage and Main, I do.

As for Josh, you are out of line. Have some respect for a senior member, who got something you don't. Life expereince.  He is right in his way of thinking. Defending one's life, or the lives of others in his home is as right as rain.


Wes

 

[josh]

As for Josh, you are out of line. Have some respect for a senior member, who got something you don't. Life expereince.  He is right in his way of thinking. Defending one's life, or the lives of others in his home is as right as rain.

Wes,

Give me a break also.  :  Senior member!?  Life experience!?  You don't even know me!?  Don't judge me by the number of posts I have here, or the cute "verbal warning" some likely-militia-type here had the time-of-day ('cause they're obviously unemployed) to give me, because I disagreed and made a point he didn't like.  If wasting your life with thousands of posts on Army.ca is an indication of anykind of "seniority" then you are a sorry lot indeed.  Otherwise, I'll be happy to disagree with you anytime.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well on this point I will have to disagree. I think anyone who clears the background check, wishes to take the required training and maintain their competencies should be allowed to carry. The percentages of people here who will go through the trouble will always be a tiny amount, going by existing US stats* or Canadian stats on the issue, it will have a net benefit.  



*2 million crimes thwarted a year, (US Justice dept),

Less than 1% of permit holders in Florida over the last 18 years have been charged with any form of firearm offence

Homicides committed by legal gun owners in Canada in the last 10 years= 2.27%, (Stats Canada)

 

[GAP]

Wes,

Give me a break also.  :  Senior member!?  Life experience!?  You don't even know me!?  Don't judge me by the number of posts I have here, or the cute "verbal warning" some likely-militia-type here had the time-of-day ('cause they're obviously unemployed) to give me, because I disagreed and made a point he didn't like.  If wasting your life with thousands of posts on Army.ca is an indication of anykind of "seniority" then you are a sorry lot indeed.  Otherwise, I'll be happy to disagree with you anytime.

Why are you here then if we are such a sorry lot that we don't measure up to your standards?....hic

 

[josh]

GAP, give it up and go back to copying-and-pasting Afghanistan news stories from the wires that most of us who are in the Reg CF have already read.  Does that make you feel important or something here?  :

 

[GAP]

my, my, the little troll seems to have a hardon for everybody, what's the matter puppy? not appreciated?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

GAP, give it up and go back to copying-and-pasting Afghanistan news stories from the wires that most of us who are in the Reg CF have already read.  Does that make you feel important or something here?  :

Well I see you did not learn from your first time on Verbal consider your self upped.