The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Jarnhamar]

The left wing want to drum up ridicule for gun owners by suggesting they're a bunch of angry whiten racist rednecks. Unfortunately for the Liberals, and I think fortunatly for gun owners,  there's a wide variety of people of both genders who are interested in shooting and that number keeps getting bigger.

I suspect that's why the Liberals haven't just broke out their hair trigger double barrel ban machine gun. They know it'll cost votes.

 

[Haggis]

Because lawful gun owners are a fractured community (they can take your handguns and semi-auto rifles if they leave my bolt-action alone), they fear them as a voting bloc even less than they fear veterans.  They know a gun ban will win them the metropolitan vote.  After that, they really don't care.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Because lawful gun owners are a fractured community (they can take your handguns and semi-auto rifles if they leave my bolt-action alone), they fear them as a voting bloc even less than they fear veterans.  They know a gun ban will win them the metropolitan vote.  After that, they really don't care.

That is a very accurate statement.  Not to mention the toxic vitriol that some gun owners have no problem spewing on public forums, example CGN.  In some senses we, legal firearms owners, can be our own worst enemies.

 

[Remius]

Because lawful gun owners are a fractured community (they can take your handguns and semi-auto rifles if they leave my bolt-action alone), they fear them as a voting bloc even less than they fear veterans.  They know a gun ban will win them the metropolitan vote.  After that, they really don't care.

Agreed.  I know plenty of long gun owners who hunt primarily that could care less if there was a hand gun ban and don't care about competitive shooting. 

 

[Haggis]

My belief is that if the Liberals are successful in 2019 and form a majority again, any gun ban in place from an expanded C-71 will be expanded to resemble the Australian or British model.  By then, it will be too late for the hunter/sports shooter community to make a stand.  lawful firearms owners need to be united now and accept that there are exclusive factions who can be mutually supporting to the benefit of the entire community.  Throwing handgun owners under the bus to preserve your deer gun will eventually fail you as a political choice.

Liberals understand two things: 
- lawful gun owners and their property are an easy political target which will garner huge votes; and
- criminals (even inmates) still get to vote and they will vote for whomever empowers their enterprise.

And there are more criminals in Canada than lawful gun owners.

 

[Jarnhamar]

TheGunBlog.ca — Toronto Mayor John Tory asked the city’s 100,000 federally licensed gun owners to leave town, he said today on NewsTalk 1010 radio. He didn’t ask the murderers and gangs responsible for a wave of shootings to leave or to stop.

“I repeat the question that you posed: Why does anybody need to have a gun in the city of Toronto?,” Tory told the Moore in the Morningshow today, according to a recording shared by JohnToryWatchon Twitter. “And if it’s someone who’s involved in a gun club, perhaps they could do that somewhere else, because I’m just trying to make sure we do everything we can to save lives and to save the trauma that I’ve seen in the community when these kinds of shootings take place.”

https://thegunblog.ca/2018/08/07/john-tory-asks-sport-shooters-to-leave-toronto-he-tells-radio/

 

[Haggis]

That is a very accurate statement.  Not to mention the toxic vitriol that some gun owners have no problem spewing on public forums, example CGN.  In some senses we, legal firearms owners, can be our own worst enemies.

Thanks. 

For the record, I'm a gun owner, a veteran and I work in law enforcement.  In my agency there are a lot of lawful gun owners and a fair number of hunters and other sport and competitive shooters.

The Canadian "gun lobby" (i.e. CCFR, NFA etc.) are mostly on the right track but, in my opinion, they have to re-work their message a bit. They are not protecting gun ownership "rights".  This doesn't exist in Canada.  Legally owning a firearm is a privilege, much like legally driving a car, flying a plane or practicing brain surgery.  They are protecting the privilege of gun ownership by lawful owners.  A privilege can be rescinded for bad conduct but it should only be rescinded from those who misbehave (criminals, for example), not the entire community.  (We all know how much "group punishment" was enjoyed at BMQ.  :nod. They have to abandon the gun "rights" narrative.  This is too easily countered by the anti-gun coalitions and the government and too easily equated to the "evil NRA".

I'm also of the opinion that they have to distance themselves from the "Canadian Citizens Concealed Carry" crowd.  Mainstream Canada is not ready for that extreme version of firearms ownership nor is there a general need for it here.  Unlike the US, not even our cops carry off-duty as a rule.  The argument has been made that civilian gun owners are better shots than cops.  To an extent I can buy that, but it's equally (if not more) important to know WHEN to shoot and when not to, something none of our mandated civilian firearms safety training covers.

So, I support legal firearms ownership.  I support registration of restricted firearms.  I find magazine capacity restrictions unrealistic (the Parkland shooter had 10 round magazines).  I believe that police and the CBSA should be properly resourced and empowered to combat illegal/illicit firearms trafficking and misuse.  And, once that's done, I believe that our existing firearms laws - properly and consistently applied - are more than sufficient to deal with Canada's "gun crisis".

 

[SeaKingTacco]

But, beating up on legal gun owners is poltically nearly risk free; it makes politicians look like they are doing something, wothout actually upsetting constituencies who come out and protest if they were to actually go after the root causes of gang/gun crime.

The fact of the matter is that our gun laws currently work exceeding well. You are far more likely (by orders of magnitude) to die Canada in a traffic accident or from opioid overdose, than from a bullet- random or otherwise.

 

[ModlrMike]

I think what some folks are missing in this discussion is that the gun control issue is pretty much emblematic of the urban-rural divide. The Liberals know that their support is quite shallow outside the major population centers, and they can afford to write those areas off in favour of solidifying their vote in urban centers. The reaction of the Toronto and Montreal mayors are just icing on the same cake.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thanks. 

For the record, I'm a gun owner, a veteran and I work in law enforcement.  In my agency there are a lot of lawful gun owners and a fair number of hunters and other sport and competitive shooters.

The Canadian "gun lobby" (i.e. CCFR, NFA etc.) are mostly on the right track but, in my opinion, they have to re-work their message a bit. They are not protecting gun ownership "rights".  This doesn't exist in Canada.  Legally owning a firearm is a privilege, much like legally driving a car, flying a plane or practicing brain surgery.  They are protecting the privilege of gun ownership by lawful owners.  A privilege can be rescinded for bad conduct but it should only be rescinded from those who misbehave (criminals, for example), not the entire community.  (We all know how much "group punishment" was enjoyed at BMQ.  :nod. They have to abandon the gun "rights" narrative.  This is too easily countered by the anti-gun coalitions and the government and too easily equated to the "evil NRA".

I'm also of the opinion that they have to distance themselves from the "Canadian Citizens Concealed Carry" crowd.  Mainstream Canada is not ready for that extreme version of firearms ownership nor is there a general need for it here.  Unlike the US, not even our cops carry off-duty as a rule.  The argument has been made that civilian gun owners are better shots than cops.  To an extent I can buy that, but it's equally (if not more) important to know WHEN to shoot and when not to, something none of our mandated civilian firearms safety training covers.

So, I support legal firearms ownership.  I support registration of restricted firearms.  I find magazine capacity restrictions unrealistic (the Parkland shooter had 10 round magazines).  I believe that police and the CBSA should be properly resourced and empowered to combat illegal/illicit firearms trafficking and misuse.  And, once that's done, I believe that our existing firearms laws - properly and consistently applied - are more than sufficient to deal with Canada's "gun crisis".

I think our positions are pretty much on par with each other.  I have my restricted license, but now that Non-Res AR styled platforms are out in .308 Win I will be going that route. 

Having said the above I will support my restricted owning brother and sisters in anyways I can.

 

[ballz]

I think our positions are pretty much on par with each other.  I have my restricted license, but now that Non-Res AR styled platforms are out in .308 Win I will be going that route. 

Having said the above I will support my restricted owning brother and sisters in anyways I can.

Brand / model? I better get one before the bureaucrats swipe their pens.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This is one of my .308's

Took some tuning to get it to run solid, but it's a great gun now.

 

[Lumber]

Can you hunt with that thing? (would you?) if so, what range would you rely upon it to make a kill with?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Can you hunt with that thing? (would you?) if so, what range would you rely upon it to make a kill with?

Yes, it's non restricted. It has an 18.5" barrel. The chamber is located just ahead of the magazine. A true bullpup. It's as accurate as any semi .308 in the scout category. I'd be willing to bet 500 and under. Your pushing the 18" barrel accuracy at that point, the gun will do its job. It's up to the operator at that range though. It'd take a bear or deer at those ranges, lots of velocity and energy still. Most bear and deer in NA are taken at under 50 yards though.

 

[AbdullahD]

I am not sure if it has been gone over.. but the restricted crowd or competition crowd vs the yearly hunting crowd is far more complex then "they just dont care".. in my opinion.

I have many friends who are competition firearms owners, many who love the "toys" side and even more who are hunters only. (I am sure this is a debate strategy now that I'm re reading it haha, I just meant to say I've seen people from each group and got to know them per se)

I find the more someone is into the gun cultural scene, the more likely they are going to be a single issue voter. Unlike those who only hunt once a year. The person who hunts once a year, may still want everyone to have the chance/right/privilege* to own a firearm.. but may at each election cycle have a more pressing priority governing their vote. So they vote in essence against firearms rights*.

I find the issue with a lot of the pro firearms propaganda is it revolves around firearms issues only. Or maybe rights being infringed upon and it is very reactionary to any and/or all issues that may or may not exist in the firearm community and does not really allow for dialogue or reform due to fear (which I may say is well grounded) that any try at reforming firearm laws will take a lot more then they intend so they cant allow any changes*.

I relatively obtained my restricted license and I'd like to believe I'm a relatively well balanced, healthy person. But! I felt that process left a little for the wanting.. it seemed to easy to me personally. I think we need to address the issue of gun smuggling and/or reporting illegal firearms etc, which may not be a firearm owners issue to firearms owners, but it is to everyone else. I don't know the answer to what is a healthy amount of regulation vs freedoms, I'd personally be ok with three or 4 levels of common accessible licenses allow people to own up to fully auto firearms IF they prove they are stable etc etc.

Any rate my point is as long as firearms rights are only firearms rights, we lose a lot of people who would otherwise support the cause per se. We need to prove or establish that restricting or forbidding firearms rights or privileges is a far more heinous issue then crying they will take all our guns. We need to make sure firearms owners show that the money spent to govern and watch over firearms owners is paid for by firearms owners or make it that way if it is not the case. We need to show that we have no issue with our guns being taken either temporarily or permanently to a third party if we go off our rocker* etc etc

Basically just grow up past the "come and take them" or "from my cold dead hands" rhetoric that so many espouse these days.

Abdullah

*ps these are things as I understand them, believe them or think exist. If I am wrong in these things or any others please correct me and show me how I am

Ps also maybe this struck a chord because I voted NDP last time around because of issues other then firearms rights etc so when I perceived contempt against people who do not put firearms issues first, I shook my head and decided I needed to put a self righteous rant up. If I took it the wrong way oops haha and sorry for the rant lol

 

[Haggis]

AbdullahD:

Just to be clear, no one has the right to own a firearm in Canada without a license to do so.  Unlike other licensed activities, firearms ownership is more restrictive.  You can own a car without a driver's license but you cannot drive it legally.

If you are moderately intelligent, involved in a stable emotional relationship and have no overt or reported psychological issues, you can get a firearms license in Canada fairly easily.  That's a given.  If you have a history of violence, substance abuse, relationship issues or psychosis, then, no, it's not easy. It should be impossible, but people lie.

Firearms licences in Canada are also very easy to lose.  The fact that it happens very rarely means that firearms owners are very well behaved and well adjusted citizens who, as a matter of daily life, play by the rules.  Many understand the Firearms Act better than most police officers because, despite MSM rhetoric, firearms offences are relatively rare.  Again, this is a testament to their commitment to making their sport as safe and legal as possible. 

Canadian firearms license holders (who may not even own firearms) are vetted daily in CPIC and if that daily vetting indicates that you have been charged with a crime which, in the eyes of the Canadian Firearms Program may compromise your ability to safely possess, store, use or transport your firearms, you will lose them and your license.  If found not guilty, your firearms will likely be returned and your license re-instated as long as you still meet all the conditions for licensing.  (This happened to a family member, wrongfully accused of domestic violence, substance abuse and suicidal thoughts - the trifecta for triggering a firearms seizure.  He was found not guilty and his firearms returned within a week.)

if you post photos of you and your firearms doing stupid, unsafe or illegal things together, know that there is an RCMP section that scours the Internet looking for such things and you can expect to be contacted as a result.

Do we really need more controls on lawful firearms owners?  Or should we just use those controls we already have more effectively on illegal firearms users?

BTW I'm not a single issue voter.  Defense (obviously - I'm on Army.ca), the economy and trade (I live in a border town), public safety (I live in a border town)  and healthcare (I'm and old guy who lives in a border town) are also equally high on my list of concerns. But I do recognize that the government's current attitude and rhetoric towards lawful firearms owners can easily be extended to any other demographic that will garner quick votes from the uninformed/misinformed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Brand / model? I better get one before the bureaucrats swipe their pens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCL_102

https://www.theammosource.com/store/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=9bmggn4kb7oueqfts5mhri6kp6&keyword=BCL+102&x=0&y=0

https://blackcreeklabs.com/

 

[Halifax Tar]

Can you hunt with that thing? (would you?) if so, what range would you rely upon it to make a kill with?

Why not ?

 

[AbdullahD]

Haggis

Thanks for your reply mate, I am not sure were I got that it is a "right" idea from.. probably US news.

I see your point and I think I agree with you, we do have a lot of good controls in place.. which should all be utilized. Yet, we still have shootings sadly, something everyone hates. The vast majority, as I understand are not by lawful firearms owners and the extremely small percent that do commit them, I agree do not create a significant portion and can as such be largely ignored as outliers/one offs/what have you.

But what happens, after every shooting is one side screams take them all away and the other dig ins and shows how it is not the lawful owners creating the issue and from what I see and dig in that way (I'll admit I dont follow the news closely so I could be out to lunch). Now I absolutely hate when innocent people who in no way associate with the crazy's get forced to defend their way of life, but sadly that is the way this twisted world is and firearms owners are forced into this corner.

Now one way we can argue to reduce firearms crimes is by being tougher on crimes, but that is a predictable approach that many would scoff at and ignore (again only my opinion). What I wonder is why doesn't the firearms association's out left the left and say something to the effect of

"We are all deeply and cofoundly saddened by these actions, that have resulted in such a catastrophic loss of life. We the xyz firearms association all have broken hearts when we see the social and economic issues that led this troubled individual to commit this heinous crime. We call on the prime minister to launch an investigation into social and economic problems that created this scenario and we implore him/her to create programs to support individuals who need help in their social lives and or with their financial/economic well being."

I remember reading somewhere that the fees firearms owners and hunters pay, create a surplus in many provinces and or for the country.. so we don't we demand better fiscal governance and maybe show that if the firearms branch is properly managed we can use some of that money to help solve these problems.

Any rate I'm pretty out of the loop with the firearms stuff/any other issues, I have the problem of just keeping to myself in my own little world.. I play my game on my phone, i use Facebook, YouTube and I come here.. so I could be considered sheltered haha

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

Can you hunt with that thing? (would you?) if so, what range would you rely upon it to make a kill with?

Technical wise that rifle is essentially the same as this.

Same caliber.
Both magazine fed
Same barrel length