The Capital Punishment Debate

[Infanteer]

It is a leap of logic to suggest that there is such a thing as a "habitual killer', I would suppose.   How do you define such?

They have lists and wear lipstick....

 

[sdimock]

Habitual Killer? Anyone who has a habit of killing people.

I have no doubt that Mr. Pickton would have continued his habit of killing people if he hadn't been caught.

 

[GLOCK 31]

"I think the bottom line is, that if you want to consider yourselves a modern, progressive, civilized society, you can't sink to the level of killing people."

If we truly were a modern, progressive, civilized society, it would have to be society as a whole.  In other words we wouldn't need the death penalty, because in a civilized society, crimes that warrent the death penalty shouldn't happen.  Since those crimes do happen, it means that we are not completely modern, progressive, and civilized.  Though most of Canada is modern, progressive, civilized, it just means that we won't have the death penalty for lesser crimes like speeding, or theft.  The punishment has to fit the crime.  So in Canada, if you kill someone and get 25 years (or in Karla's case, 13 years), it means that the victims life is only worth that, as well as the suffering caused to their family, friends, and society at a whole. 

"There are no logical arguments for having a death penalty, only emotional ones."

Logically if something has been proven dangerous, you get rid of it, not lock it up for a short bit and release it again.  It would be like locking up a rabid dog, and releasing it again.  The logical thing is to get rid of it.

"It doesn't deter crime, I don't think you really teach anyone a lesson by killing them."

True, they wouldn't learn anything because they are dead.  Its about removing a danger from society, not about teaching a lesson.

"The only thing it does is offer a sense of satisfaction to the victims family, which is really just a kind of instinctive desire for revenge."

Is revenge ever satisfying?  If the man who killed Holly Jones was sentenced to death, and executed, would her parents, friends, and family feel satisfied.  It is only my belief that there is no satisfaction that can be had, for crimes that these people commit.  If my daughter (if I had one) had gone through that, or others (ie. Albert Fish), I would not feel any satisfaction with their death and would probably never be at rest again.  But at least I would feel some comfort that he wouldn't have another victim.  How can a civilized society, be civilized, if they release people who are dangerous back in to society (ie. Karla Homolka).  How do you see us as civilized if we had a chance to stop her from doing harm and did not.  If she were to re-commit.

Also for the victims who are dead, will never know what it is like to live a full life, and for some never know what its like to have kids of their own one day.  Then to release the ones who caused that to live the rest of their life, have kids, and all the freedoms that their victims should have enjoyed.  How is that civilized?  Just a thought, and MHO.

 

[GLOCK 31]

Forgot something.

"Plus we live in an imperfect justice system, I don't think you can justify executing even one innocent person so that you can feel good about yourself for killing a whole bunch of bad murderers."

So in other words you can justify letting a whole bunch of bad murderers go, to save one innocent.  Then what if the whole bunch of bad murderers who you let go/live re-commit, and kill a whole bunch of innocent people.  You knew they were dangerous but did not take the steps needed to ensure peoples safety.  I for one would rather be that innocent person killed, rather than have one other innocent person killed because the whole bunch of bad murders were let go/live.  I could not live knowing that my life caused the death of others (innocent others, not bad murderers).  That to me would be unbarable.

Robert

 

[TCBF]

I type slowly.   Nice fish.

OK, so, a maximum of death for:

- All forms of murder and manslaughter.

- Accessories to the above.

t- Any assault resulting in an injury that may have resulted in death had timely medical intervension not been made.

- Torture.

- Capital corruption (corruption potentially damaging to our democratic culture).

- Massive fraud.

- Gross negligence.

- Accessories to the above.

No limit to the number of 'drops':   five guys and a girl go into a house party - five guys kill the girl - all five hang.

Any takers?

Actually, Britney, I have stated before that I do like the Chinese take on this.   I wish Canada would show similar maturity.

Tom

 

[visitor]

What is also unbearable is the thought of many children with psychiatric or severe learning problems who grow up to be criminals, cause a lot of pain, heartache  and tragedy and then  are  either incarcerated their whole lives or killed by capital punishment.

Nobody wins.  These are  complex, multi-layer problems that are not solved by execution.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

First, +1 to TCBF, I concur whole heartedly.

...by giving an example that proves exactly the opposite?   ???

Do you need me to draw you a picture? You made the assertion that A) Statisitics indicate that rates of teen pregnancy are going down. and then B) teenagers are more often engaging in sex other than vaginal intercourse. You then claimed that B somehow invalidated A, when anyone over the age of 14 would know that B in fact has NOTHING to do with A. The quoted statisitic is completely accurate and no one could possibly reach the same conclusion that you did.

Seriously, this level of not paying attention to what I am trying to say is usually reserved for my wife.  I mentioned a statistic.  Then I explained the background behind it.  People who read the statistic on its own may have though "that is great".  When they heard the reason for it, they may have not thought that it was so great after all.  Thats why if you read a statistic saying that the homicide rate is down, don't get too excited because there are other reasons for it other than a decrease in violence.  If you still don't get my point, then I give up, you win.  
And yes, lovely fish.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I think Ghost may have been referring to "habitual offenders", not killers.  

Glock drilled it on the head.   Not much else to say.

"Nobody wins.   These are   complex, multi-layer problems that are not solved by execution"--someone else can come up with a way to repair society.   In the mean time, if we cut out and discard the cancerous elements in our communities, how does that do anything but help everyone?

 

[Old Ranger]

With the amount of evidence to convict a killer, and with absolute certainty to the criminals guilt.

Strap them down and let the family of the victims have first crack at it.

Death Penalty....Yes!  and not this 20 year waiting game, Save the money and do it sooner.

The money saved could go to forensic labs and techs to ensure guilt or innocence.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Britney, you are normally not this thick.........

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I offer this link as a final thought:

http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html

I cant imagine a more comprehensive pro-death penalty site.  Its got something for everyone!!

 

[GLOCK 31]

One of the arguments against capital punishment is that we may "execute an innocent person".   The argument goes that, unless we can bring that person back to life, we shouldn't execute anyone.

To add to what 48Highlander had said, I would add.

Letting a whole bunch of murderers go, to save one innocent.  Then what if the whole bunch of murderers who were let go/live, goes and kills again.  Then a whole bunch of innocent people were killed instead of the one.  We knew they were dangerous but did not take the steps needed to ensure peoples safety.  I for one would rather be that one innocent person killed, rather than have one other innocent person killed because the whole bunch of bad murders were let go/live.  I could not live knowing that my life caused the death of others (innocent others, not murderers).  That to me would be unbarable.  No one wants to see, or have, someone die or put to death.  But I bet you would not want other innocent people to die instead.  A life sentence, and the death penalty is the same.  Except the death penalty is quicker, and makes 100% sure they can't harm anyone else.  It is also a whole lot cheaper if done right.

What logic is there in letting people like this being left alive.  This list is only for examples of crimes, not the people them selves since some were executed, and few, if any, were done in Canada.  But right now, if people like them were to commit crimes similar to them in Canada, they would be left alive, and for what reason?  

Albert Fish, Jeffery Dahmer, Andrei Chikatilo (was executed in 1992 with a bullet to the back of the head, but I included him because of his crime, if it was in Canada he would still be alive), Nikolai Dzhurmongaliev, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Eddie Gein, David Berkowitz, Albert De Salvob, Jerry Brudos, Dennis Rader, John Wayne Gacy, H. H. Holmes, Edmund Kemper, Pedro Lopez, Anatoly Onoprienko, Dr. Harold Shipman.  A list of a few, of many that have no logical reason for people like them to be kept alive.  There are many, many more that could of been listed.  All the information I found during college, because we had to study them in our course.  The source is Court TV's website  http://www.crimelibrary.com/ .  All their stories and details, for people with a strong stomach, are on the site.  A warning, some information on the site is quite disturbing, just to warn ahead of time.  Not specifically the people them selves, but just some of the crimes that are committed in this world today, and if it were to happen in Canada, those kinda people deserve the death penalty.  My post was much longer as I gave a brief description of what each did, but removed it because I think it would be inappropriate to have incase kids come on this topic and read it.  So if you wanna know what they did, the whole stories, check out the site, because I won't list it.

Joseph Edward Duncan III is a prime example of why the death penalty should be implemented.  A small quote from the following site is "By August 27, 1997, Duncan had made his way to his half-sister's house in Kansas City, Missouri, where he was arrested for parole violations. He was returned to Washington and sent back to prison, but was released less than three years later. On July 21, 2000, Duncan moved to Fargo, North Dakota.

Realizing that they were dealing with a probable serial killer, the cops found themselves wondering why Duncan had ever been released from prison. He was clearly an example of a habitual offender who had managed to slip through the cracks of the system."

Here is the story of what happened,
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/joseph_duncan/index.html

Robert

Edit:  + 1 more to what TCBF said.  5 murderers = 5 executions

 

[Britney Spears]

I mentioned a statistic.

That teen pregnancy was down, correct?

Then I explained the background behind it.

That it was due to the prevalence of other-than-vaginal intercourse, correct? Of course this in it self is ridiculous, as if anal sex was the only method of birth control available today, but we'll run with it for the sake of argument.

When they heard the reason for it, they may have not thought that it was so great after all.

Because most people would preferr more unwanted pregnancies to teenagers engaging in unorthrodox sexual activities?

Your statement illustrates perfectly how statistics DON'T lie. If teen pregnancy is down, then it's down. If hommicide is down, then it's down. However, when someone tries to use a stat such as "teen pregnancies down" to prove something that it plainly doesn't ("teenagers are having less sex"), then it's dishonesty on the part of the presenter. I mean, I'm not claiming to be a SME here but I know I can have sex without (generally) also getting pregnant, so that example is pretty damn stupid. 

I know the zipperhead is too far into the argument to back down gracefully now, this isn't for his benefit, but I do hope that our readers here will apply a little more critical thinking in other (more interesting) discussions.

Britney, you are normally not this thick.........

Not normally? Well I'm glad I'm moving up in your world. Maybe I should apply to be a mod sometime soon?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

"Because most people would preferr more unwanted pregnancies to teenagers engaging in unorthrodox sexual activities? "  No you tool, because most parents dont want to hear that their daughter is taking it in the back nine.  Geez, this is exhausting.

I will be thrilled to back out of this, because it is obvious that you are deliberately ignoring what I am trying to say.  Semantics for its own sake is a waste of time.

You win.  You are right.  You should believe every statistic you are ever presented with without question for the rest of your life.  Statistics are our friends.

Can we abandon this ridiculous off shoot and get back to the death penalty talk?

 

[TCBF]

"Correlation is not causation." -Stat 101?

Enough of this infighting.  Let's all go lynch some scrotes.

Figuratively speaking, of course.

Tom

 

[visitor]

Nobody knows if teen pregnancy is down because  lots of girls now know how to use  regular birth control pills as a morning after  pill; and so can take care of themselves, neatly sidestepping anybody who might want to count them.

 

[visitor]

The cost of klling versus  keeping an inmate:

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution."
(Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

 

[visitor]

If your concern is  punishment, change the parole  and sentencing laws to keep people in jail for life.  Find ways to punish them.

If your concern is to deter and prevent crime,  jail people and use the money saved  by not killing them for  research, programs, etc, to identify  at-risk people who might kill before they do so and  provide treatment programs,  etc.  as well as better policing.

The above  solutions will not  meet the public's need  for revenge and their own thirst for killing though. 

 

[48Highlander]

The above  solutions will not  meet the public's need  for revenge and their own thirst for killing though. 

Put down the crackpeace pipe and get off your high horse.  If any of us were concerned with revenge, or felt a "thirst for killing", you'd be seeing vigilantism on a daily basis in every city.

 

[TCBF]

The cost comparisons are useles.  executions are in yesterday's dollars - incarceration costs will be subject to inflation and future crimes commited while incarcerated and their resulting medical and legal costs.

Japan has a healthy regard for the bottom line, and they still execute.

But, we don't want to do this because it is cheap, we want to do this because it is RIGHT.

Tom