The 5th estate: Abu Ghraib and Torture in Iraq

[GO!!!]

Well, I watched the 5th estate last night, and they interviewed several of the soldiers involved in the Abu Ghraib prison "scandal".

Am I alone in thinking that the treatment that the Iraqi prisoners suffered there was not really torture?

They were badly treated, vigorously interrogated and made uncomfortable for long periods of time in order to facilitate interrogation. This was done under the explicit and implicit order of their chain of command - so, no biggie.

As for the incident in which the three alleged homosexual child rapists were humiliated and beaten up a bit - this was wrong because it did not have official sanction. It was a bunch of angry young men acting stupidly. But was it torture? I don't think so. They (prisoners) were put in uncomfortable conditions and embarrassed.

It seems to me that this documentary is engaging in making a mountain out of a molehill. None of the prisoners in Abu Grhaib died. They were interrogated in methods that the previous Iraqi regime would find laughable, but were still effective. Is pouring water on someone torture? Sandbag over the head was standard in our army until 2002, handcuffing to each other is to prevent injury to the guards, and they were naked because many of them insisted on throwing feces and other bodily fluids, or covering themselves with said.

The documentary reatedly brings up the various Geneva Conventions, and how they were allegedly violated, but makes no provision for the treatment that captured americans have recieved (immolation, genitals cut off and placed in mouth, throat slit etc) and that the enemy in this war does not follow the geneva convention.

Is this documentary an objective account of the events that took place? Or is it another thinly disguised attempt at opposing the US war on terror, the war in iraq, and anti americanism?

Thoughts?

 

[pbi]

I didn't see it, but I am reasonably sure that a strain of anti-Americanism still runs quite deeply in the Canadian media, as it does in our country as a whole. However, I am not sure I understand this statement:

This was done under the explicit and implicit order of their chain of command - so, no biggie.

Are you suggesting that because the direction to do something comes down the chain of command, that makes it right? If so, I don't think I could agree. Or are you just mirroring the way the US soldiers probably thought about it? In which case you could be quite accurate.

Cheers.

 

[teddy49]

I'd vote for another thinly disguised attack on the GWOT.  That said, stand by for more pics from this scandal.  We haven't even seen the worst of these pictures.  Also I've heard that there are some new pics of insurgents that were turned over ISF circulating the Arab media now.  Rest assured that these make Abu Ghraib look like summer camp.  Once the american people figure out that there are no good guys here, the gig will be up for all of us I think.

 

[S McKee]

I do believe that one or two prisoners died while in custody, however I could be mistaken. I would have liked to see how the CBC presented the story, knowing the CBC however I suspect that the program had a decidedly anti-American flavour.

 

[Recce41]

I believe in a way it was torture. But to the US, their the good guys so. It doesn't count. They the US, say they are for Freedom, Human Rights, BLAH BLAH, etc. But they don't hold by it. For one many detanees in Cuba, Iraq, and A Stan are not terrorists. They were on the wrong side. I saw one documantary from Britain, it was said, many people were picked up by, just having someone say you were.
It would be as here, I don't like my neighbour, so he's a terrorist. It is as in WW2 the Resistance fighters, were as the Iraqs, Afgans are. Fighting against a threat they feel the US is. You may say, the Nazis were bad OOOO yes. But they invaded a country, as the US did. Some supported the Germans, some didn't. Many French, didn't even care if they were liberated, for they had a so called peace. My father told me once, he was spit on by a French lady. She said, the Allies were just as bad for destroying her house and killing her husband. The Germans did do that. And there were many more stories of dislike.
I say disband the Int guys. HAHA. But look who got it, the little guy and a Gen who was out ranked. Total BS

 

[GO!!!]

pbi - My statement regarding the "explicit and implicit" orders were in regards to the way the US troops percieved them and acted.

Soldiers in the documentary state that it was included in their duties to keep prisoners awake for long periods of time, restrain them in stress positions, scare them with dogs, and engage in corrective measure to ensure compliance - they were following orders, not engaging in some sadistic game. The alleged rapists were not part of an official investigation, the guards acted alone on that one.

The prisoners that died were also mentioned in the documentary, but that happened in Afghanistan in 2002, not at Abu Ghraib. The common thread was that the same officer who had been in charge of the unit that (allegedly, the official cause of death was "natural causes") killed the two prisoners in A'stan, was in an official capacity at Abu Ghraib.

 

[S McKee]

I believe in a way it was torture. But to the US, their the good guys so. It doesn't count. They the US, say they are for Freedom, Human Rights, BLAH BLAH, etc. But they don't hold by it. For one many detanees in Cuba, Iraq, and A Stan are not terrorists. They were on the wrong side. I saw one documantary from Britain, it was said, many people were picked up by, just having someone say you were.
It would be as here, I don't like my neighbour, so he's a terrorist. It is as in WW2 the Resistance fighters, were as the Iraqs, Afgans are. Fighting against a threat they feel the US is. You may say, the Nazis were bad OOOO yes. But they invaded a country, as the US did. Some supported the Germans, some didn't. Many French, didn't even care if they were liberated, for they had a so called peace. My father told me once, he was spit on by a French lady. She said, the Allies were just as bad for destroying her house and killing her husband. The Germans did do that. And there were many more stories of dislike.
I say disband the Int guys. HAHA. But look who got it, the little guy and a Gen who was out ranked. Total BS

WTF are you smoking? I can't understand a word of that incoherent drivel you wrote. Are you comparing the Nazis with the US?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Its already happy hour out there....

 

[S McKee]

The prisoners that died were also mentioned in the documentary, but that happened in Afghanistan in 2002, not at Abu Ghraib. The common thread was that the same officer who had been in charge of the unit that (allegedly, the official cause of death was "natural causes") killed the two prisoners in A'stan, was in an official capacity at Abu Ghraib.

Seen.

Regarding whether or not the prisoners were "tortured" I don't think so. Tortured is a pretty strong term. I would say they were subjected to conditioning methods to ensure they were more pliable for interrogation. The whole issue is the political fallout and embarrassment that the US Government suffered because of the photos.

 

[Hunter]

I watched it last night and it seemed very one-sided.  They made a couple of references to an officer who had been in charge of the prison, and they kept making these references to her being presented with different decorations.  They didn't say what the decorations (including her second bronze star) were for, but seemed to suggest that she was being rewarded for condoning torture.

Overall I thought it wasn't very good.

 

[S McKee]

Its already happy hour out there....

That must be it....

 

[UberCree]

The real story is that these U.S. soldiers are being charged at all, for crimes that would be laughable in most of the world.  Sure all the peace mongers and US haters claim that this proves state sponsorship of prisoner abuse, but in fact it proves teh opposite.  Several contractors have been charged, numerous soldiers, etc.  To me it says the checks and balances that are put in place to prevent widespread anarchy amongst the soldiers are in fact working.

Legthy discussion on this on SOCNET if interested in US opinion.
http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54349

 

[Blue Max]

I have read the reports and stories and it seems to this untrained person that those Iraqi inmates were made to feel very uncomfortable so as to precipitate them releasing any information they were harbouring (unclear as to whether any good Intel was acquired).

The CBC should querier the other Arab states around Iraq as to what normal interrogation techniques are in that region?  Normal interrogation techniques for most Arab states is probably more akin to, being strung up on a metal bed frame, having a bucket of water thrown over you just before an electrical power source is attached either to the bed frame or your body parts!

Now that is torture, but no outrage from peaceniks or CBC story.

 

[George Wallace]

UberCree

Interesting that you brought this up.  They have found that in the British Forces, the soldiers are more afraid of the JAG than of the Enemy.  They fear the lengthy delays and time consuming process of being charged with 'criminal acts' and are often incapacitated in the performance of their duties in Iraq.  Many are getting so stressed out from the thought of the ramifications that they will face, if they engage a belligerent in the performance of their duties, that they are leaving the British Forces in droves.

 

[rifleman]

who cares what anyone else does?

 

[HItorMiss]

who cares what anyone else does?

You can't be serious, can you??


why should we care....because it's on our TV set. This is what the populace of Canada watched and therefore will (wrongly) base their oppinion on what the CF does. You see my friend they will start to question about what happens to those insurgent forces we may or may not have taken prisoner and may or may not have handed over to to US forces, then we get into a debate about said treatment of those detainees.


Now I'm not saying anything here other then, if we get hamstrung at a later date in the pursuit of our mission, because some CBC journalist (and I use that term lightly) stirred a pot with half researched material and a clear anti-American, anti-military agenda, then I really think were going to care then....so maybe we should care now.

 

[UberCree]

UberCree

Interesting that you brought this up.  They have found that in the British Forces, the soldiers are more afraid of the JAG than of the Enemy.  They fear the lengthy delays and time consuming process of being charged with 'criminal acts' and are often incapacitated in the performance of their duties in Iraq.  Many are getting so stressed out from the thought of the ramifications that they will face, if they engage a belligerent in the performance of their duties, that they are leaving the British Forces in droves.

"They" find out all sorts of things eh?  haha.  I suppose that is the downside for sure.  However I am sure that is also has the effect of them taking less prisoners ... if you know what I mean.  Of all the forces involved, the Brits have the Secrecy Act protecting them do they not?  I would think they would be least afraid of JAG.

Remember what they teach in basic.  If you abuse prisoners of war then the enemy will fight to the death.  If you treat them well, they will surrender in droves.  That we are debating and covering these 'abuses' proves to me, and many others in the world, that we are better than the enemy.

 

[geo]

The CBC should querier the other Arab states around Iraq as to what normal interrogation techniques are in that region?   Normal interrogation techniques for most Arab states is probably more akin to, being strung up on a metal bed frame, having a bucket of water thrown over you just before an electrical power source is attached either to the bed frame or your body parts!
Now that is torture, but no outrage from peaceniks or CBC story.

Max...
It's pretty much the same thing as if your brother turned around and insulted /slugged ya... VS the bully down the block.

In the end, you forgive/tolerate the A$$Ole brother cause he's your brother BUT you will hold a grudge against that other yahoo.

To the Iraqis' the US & UK are the bullies down the street while the Shiites & Sunnis are the A$$Ole borthers & sisters.

The US & UK will always be "WRONG" no mater how well justified their acts might have seemed.

Fact of life

 

[Blue Max]

Geo, good description of how centuries of family survival/values have us turn our cheek when wronged by those closest to us.

Your description does not though explain why the mob know as the press, that has no relation to A$$Ole family continually feed the flames of dissent and disinformation, to the detriment of relations closest to them, and I don't mean the A$$Ole family.

Does it mean that money (paper sales, TV specials...) trumps all else, even our own proverbial family ties? :-\

 

[SHF]

As requested from the original post from Go!!!, I share my thoughts. 

I am somewhat surprised that Canadian servicemen could find nothing wrong with the acts committed by the US forces at Abu Ghraib.  I will only provide a quote and compare it to the Geneva Conventions Article 17.

Go!!!
Am I alone in thinking that the treatment that the Iraqi prisoners suffered there was not really torture?

They were badly treated, vigorously interrogated and made uncomfortable for long periods of time in order to facilitate interrogation. This was done under the explicit and implicit order of their chain of command - so, no biggie.

Article 17

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

This is only a simple example of abuse of the POWs, but since the US government doesn't seem to recognize any of the detainees as POWs, I guess it is OK.  I have no idea how our folks in our society can be consumed by so much hatred and ignorance to stand idly by and allow crap like this to happen or to condone the occurrence. 

I never understood why we imprisoned Japanese, German, Italian, Ukrainian, etc Canadians during the two world wars.  Was it racism?  Was it a overzealous nationalism? 

To those of us who make excuses for the guilty serviceman, officers and government officials who treat fellow human beings like dirt, shame on us.