TF Cdr Reports Self for Possible Accidental Discharge

[Gunner98]

I don't know, it's a tough call.  I absolutely agree with you that if you look at every single case individually you will see that some negligence is involved...but overall if you were ask everyone in here honestly if they have ever had one I think they numbers would be pretty high.

Another matter altogether is to ask everyone on this board who has ever had one (and knew damn-well they had one) but were in some sort of environment where only friends were around and they didn't have the integrity to bring it up the chain of command until they were rightly charged.

I am of the belief that yes every soldier needs to be in control of his rifle, but his integrity means even more.  TFK Comd's integrity points will go up more than his fieldcraft stock will go down.

And at the end of the day, nobody is infallible in terms of mistakes.  However, there is a difference between making a mistake and doing wrong.*  To lie about it would have been to do wrong, and would not have been recoverable from.

*Note* Can't take credit for that line, it's from the new ethics pub "Duty With Discernment".

Petamocto,

There are many in this topic thread who will vehemently disagree with you!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/85031/post-913716.html#msg913716

This by far my favorite statement on this issue by a CBC reporter:

If it was an accidental or negligent incident, Ménard would likely face a court martial. The penalty for a guilty finding in such cases is often as low as $10 or even a reprimand, but because of Ménard's rank and position, he would probably be fined a much heftier amount.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/04/17/menard-afghanistan-investigation-rifle-discharge.html#ixzz0lQ7fet3R

 

[Pusser]

We should all remember that there was a Fleet Commander (Commodore) who turned himself in for looking at "Penthouse-like sites" on his DND issued laptop.  He was court-martialed, found guilty and received the same fine as a Captain who had allowed his son to play computer games on his DND issued laptop - $200.

 

[ballz]

Petamocto,

There are many in this topic thread who will vehemently disagree with you!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/85031/post-913716.html#msg913716

Seems like that is purposefully directed towards me. If I disagree with something, I am quite capable of doing so myself.

Back to the topic at hand...

I was wondering why a big investigation is needed as well. The NDs that I saw, one of our course staff just function tested the weapon in front of them (3 times? can't remember now) and said "this weapon is functioning correctly." And well shortly after they were receiving their punishment...

 

[1feral1]

I was wondering why a big investigation is needed as well. The NDs that I saw, one of our course staff just function tested the weapon in front of them (3 times? can't remember now) and said "this weapon is functioning correctly." And well shortly after they were receiving their punishment...

A bullet has no conscience, and goes were the muzzle is pointed. Blank or live a UD is a UD, and having course staff, who are just that, course staff, are unquallified in making any proper fault diagnosis, also there is a bias.

Deployed or at home (seen UDs in both enviroments, and they are treated equally). The operator/defendant has rights to a fair trial, not some kangaroo court. I would not call a UD a big investigation, but a standard investigation to see why the UD happened, and any recommendations for this, plus there is usually/pretty much always a charge, in which proper reports must be heard, and not some  lame statement from a course staff person.

The weapon has a complete technical inspection, as per the EMEI, and this is followed up with a hard copy ATI report, and a factual statement of the armourer with his findings.

Here the weapon is quarantined until the investigation is over, and the chgarge is heard.

Do it right, or not at all.

OWDU

 

[daftandbarmy]

Goodness me - it's a rifle, not an "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_the_Martian

If you can't do the time, do the drills right.

 

[ballz]

A bullet has no conscience, and goes were the muzzle is pointed. Blank or live a UD is a UD, and having course staff, who are just that, course staff, are unquallified in making any proper fault diagnosis, also there is a bias.

Deployed or at home (seen UDs in both enviroments, and they are treated equally). The operator/defendant has rights to a fair trial, not some kangaroo court. I would not call a UD a big investigation, but a standard investigation to see why the UD happened, and any recommendations for this, plus there is usually/pretty much always a charge, in which proper reports must be heard, and not some  lame statement from a course staff person.

The weapon has a complete technical inspection, as per the EMEI, and this is followed up with a hard copy ATI report, and a factual statement of the armourer with his findings.

Here the weapon is quarantined until the investigation is over, and the chgarge is heard.

Do it right, or not at all.

OWDU

Oh sorry I didn't mean that question to you and the way its done out that way. I think that's an interesting approach you have going on though, definitely like that it's done the same way no matter what too. Whether we should take that kind of route or not is obviously well beyond me and I'm not even going to pretend to have an opinion or a clue about that stuff.

What I was wondering was WRT being within the same military, the CF, the differences in how they're approaching an ND is varying drastically. Where as my course mates were dealt with in a matter of a few minutes really (and then a this General has the NIS come in and do a full investigation and plasters his face across the media... I realize rank has some impact on this but... I mean it's too opposite ends of the spectrum here.

Daft.... too funny hahaha...

 

[ballz]

WOW, the Globe and Mail decided that the whole "reported himself" thing wasn't an important enough fact to mention....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadas-top-soldier-in-afghanistan-faces-probe-after-rifle-incident/article1538105/

The commander of Canadian troops in Afghanistan is being investigated after his assault rifle unexpectedly went off at Kandahar Airfield.

Brig.-Gen. Daniel Ménard says it's not been determined whether there was a malfunction or whether it was an accidental discharge.

No one was hurt and nothing damaged in the March 25 incident, which Brig.-Gen. Menard voluntarily disclosed to reporters Saturday night.

The general routinely travels outside of the wire, visiting troops at forward bases throughout Kandahar.

He wouldn't discuss details of the incident because it is under review by the military's National Investigative Service.

If it's found to be an accidental discharge, Brig.-Gen. Ménard as a general officer, faces an automatic court martial with the possibility of a fine.

The military takes weapons security seriously, and Brig.-Gen. Ménard says he is no different than his soldiers and that's why he ordered the investigation on himself.

It's unclear how long the probe will take.

 

[tomahawk6]

Yon reports that Canadian sources said the ND hit a US helicopter and narrowly missed a high level Canadian visitor. If true it might be the reason he self reported. Or maybe it happened as stated. No doubt the results will be embarassing.

 

[AIC_2K5]

TF Cdr Reports Self for Possible Accidental Discharge

It's interesting to see that the media have got a hold of this. What's even more interesting is how rumors grow around this place. When word of this first came out it was a 5 round burst from a C7 through both doors of a spooled blackhawk and narrowly missing the CDS. 

Latest word is that it was a single shot from a 9mm.  :-\

 

[vonGarvin]

It's interesting to see that the media have got a hold of this. What's even more interesting is how rumors grow around this place. When word of this first came out it was a 5 round burst from a C7 through both doors of a spooled blackhawk and narrowly missing the CDS. 

Latest word is that it was a single shot from a 9mm.  :-\

I heard that it was a 30mm from a Skyguard AA gun that we have over there, narrowly missing Pres Obama, HM the Queen and His Holiness The Pope, as they were about to buy a burger from Burger King on the boardwalk.


And people like Amir Attaran wonder why we don't believe rumours!

 

[The Bread Guy]

Oh, if only I had a nickel for every time I ordered a probe of....whoa, wait a minute...not going there!

What a difference a few hours online makes....
General orders investigation into himself

It's interesting to see that the media have got a hold of this. What's even more interesting is how rumors grow around this place. When word of this first came out it was a 5 round burst from a C7 through both doors of a spooled blackhawk and narrowly missing the CDS. 

Latest word is that it was a single shot from a 9mm.  :-\

Not what the General apparently told the media:

The commander of Canadian troops in Afghanistan is being investigated after his assault rifle unexpectedly went off at Kandahar Airfield.....

Hence Technoviking's (and others') skepticism.

 

[Gunner98]

WOW, the Globe and Mail decided that the whole "reported himself" thing wasn't an important enough fact to mention....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadas-top-soldier-in-afghanistan-faces-probe-after-rifle-incident/article1538105/

ballz,

You should read what you quote before you post! What does the second last line of the article you quoted states, "that's why he ordered the investigation on himself."

Why the big investigation? Well I don't know, perhaps we could have a Lt or a MCpl on his staff do a quick interrogation of the BGen?


Edit:  I forgot to mention that you (ballz) really should read the other posts in the thread I previously cited, there were actually people discussing 'real NDs' long before the thread took a tangent to Saint-Jean.  Things that happen during training in Saint-Jean ain't the "real world" of soldiering!

 

[ballz]

Edit:  I forgot to mention that you (ballz) really should read the other posts in the thread I previously cited, there were actually people discussing 'real NDs' long before the thread took a tangent to Saint-Jean.  Things that happen during training in Saint-Jean ain't the "real world" of soldiering!

Petamocto's post was about good integrity and the importance of it, and you directly linked to MY post, not the thread, as an example of people "vehemently disagreeing" with him . I'll point out that the post you directed him to is in no way even related to his points, which is why I don't need you putting words in my mouth for me, just like you are now saying that I have compared Basic training to real soldiering, in this thread or the other one.

 

[SeanNewman]

Agreed.

I don't really know what he was referring to either and was a bit confused where the link directed me to since it wasn't for or against anything I was saying.

Does he disagree that integrity is important?  Does he disagree that a relatively high percentage of people who have a full career in the combat arms and work with C7s regularly have some sort of ND at some point and many never report on themselves or buddies?

I am the first to admit that I am guilty of this.  As a young Lt platoon commander, the platoon 2IC (Warrant Officer) of all people had an ND in front of the platoon, and it was quite obvious that it was not on purpose, even though it was followed by the old "Test fire weapons!".

He didn't turn himself in, and while I was debating in my head how to handle it, low and behold Karma paid me a visit and I had one shortly after (although mine was on video camera, believe it or not).  Of course I was made fun of for it, but the troops saw that I owned up to it, got charged, and had to pay a much larger fine than they did for an ND (about 5 x as much, and rightfully so).  It's impossible to know for sure what they thought of me after that, but I think they got over it and the only thing they could make fun of me for was that 90% of them could out-run me.

 

[Ammo]

Haven't seen this topic anywhere else so here we go:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/04/18/Canadian-generals-rifle-discharge-probed/UPI-35741271633387/
The general who leads Canadian troops in Afghanistan said he ordered an investigation into his actions after accidentally firing his rifle at an air base.
Brig. Gen. Daniel Menard, the head of Joint Task Force Afghanistan, said the military's National Investigation Service would look into the Mach 25 incident, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. reported Sunday.
Menard had been loading his C8 carbine at Kandahar Airfield when it discharged.
No one was injured.
Under Canada's National Defense Act, it is it illegal to accidentally discharge a weapon. The investigation will focus on whether the gun was fired accidentally or negligently and whether it malfunctioned.
The CBC said if the incident proves to be an accident or a result of negligence, Menard would likely face a court-martial.

General orders investigation into himself
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/04/17/menard-afghanistan-investigation-rifle-discharge.html
The commander of Canadian troops in Afghanistan has ordered a special investigation into his own actions.
Brig.-Gen. Daniel Ménard, the head of Joint Task Force Afghanistan, announced Saturday that he has summoned the military's National Investigation Service to probe the unintended discharge of his gun.
Ménard said he was loading his C8 carbine at Kandahar Airfield on March 25, something he said he has done thousands of times, when it went off. No one was injured and nothing was damaged, but the National Defence Act makes it an offence to accidentally discharge a weapon.
The military police probe will determine whether the general's weapon was fired accidentally or negligently, or whether it malfunctioned.
If it was an accidental or negligent incident, Ménard would likely face a court martial. The penalty for a guilty finding in such cases is often as low as $10 or even a reprimand, but because of Ménard's rank and position, he would probably be fined a much heftier amount.
Ménard said he felt compelled to relate the information in the name of openness.
In the last 18 months, more than 600 Canadian Forces soldiers have been convicted of accidentally or negligently discharging their weapons. Most of those incidents involve junior officers or recruits, and often it's a case of pulling the trigger on a firing range before being given the command to do so.

 

[SeanNewman]

There is another thread on this.  It has several pages.  Not sure how you couldn't find it.

Added - When I posted this it was on a different thread, and no longer makes sense now that it has been moved here.  Mods: feel free to delete this post now.

 

[Snakedoc]

I think the CBC article in Ammo's post gives much better context to the average reader regarding the incident with the mentioning of number of convictions and common consequences.  IMO, some articles try to sensationalize the incident disproportionately by only mentioning that the General would be court martialled if charged (where the average reader often associates jail time,  much more serious charges such as murder etc. with court martials).

 

[Gunner98]

You're confused?  Integrity was what I was referring to...and now you post this!  Is not reporting yourself or your buddies - an example of having good integrity?

Agreed.

I don't really know what he was referring to either and was a bit confused where the link directed me to since it wasn't for or against anything I was saying.

Does he disagree that integrity is important?  Does he disagree that a relatively high percentage of people who have a full career in the combat arms and work with C7s regularly have some sort of ND at some point and many never report on themselves or buddies?

I am the first to admit that I am guilty of this.  As a young Lt platoon commander, the platoon 2IC (Warrant Officer) of all people had an ND in front of the platoon, and it was quite obvious that it was not on purpose, even though it was followed by the old "Test fire weapons!".

He didn't turn himself in, and while I was debating in my head how to handle it, low and behold Karma paid me a visit and I had one shortly after (although mine was on video camera, believe it or not). Of course I was made fun of for it, but the troops saw that I owned up to it, got charged, and had to pay a much larger fine than they did for an ND (about 5 x as much, and rightfully so).  It's impossible to know for sure what they thought of me after that, but I think they got over it and the only thing they could make fun of me for was that 90% of them could out-run me.

So your Pl WO had an ND and you thought it necessary that he turn himself in.  Why wouldn't you as the Pl Comd report him and have charged? Have you looked at your commissioning scroll lately? Your Pl WO was not your "buddy".

Did you own up to it or was it just that it was caught on tape and you could not deny it? 

Since you were charged, did you take one for the Pl Command team and did not report the WO.  Did he support you like this ...often?  I am sure the troops were impressed that both of their superiors have an ND in a short period of time.  I doubt they got over this very quickly and it probably still brings a smile to their faces at Pl reunions.

If 600 people have been charged in 18 months it would seem that by this statement, "many never report on themselves or buddies", that we have an even bigger problem or you're mistaken.  Please 'un'confuse me?

 

[ballz]

Edit: brought to and dealt with in PMs. I promise I'm buying a subscription soon so I can delete this damn things myself.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Yon would have a field day with this - if he werent banned from Afghanistan.

Sadly, it doesn't matter that he's not there - the latest:
http://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/posts/106781272697382