Should the US create a Foreign Legion for non-Americans?

[Kat Stevens]

the reason the US doesn't play nice with UN is simple, and it's the same reason they've held back every other time:  They don't want to put their troops under command of anyone else...Just MHO, as always... Flame On...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Sherwood4459]

All you say is true.  Americans have problems with both peacekeeping and the UN. 

Many see peacekeeping as secondary to the US military's primary role to fight and win wars.  Some of this is resistance to the commitment of American troops to anything but the security of the country.  Some of this resistance is just bureaucratic in nature.  The US Army and USMC view peacekeeping operations as taking away troops that are badly needed elsewhere.  If you have a force whose primary mission is peacekeeping, you eliminate much of the bureaucratic resistance.  And with the force being foreign recruited, Americans would have less opposition to it's commitment to peacekeeping operations.

The UN is viewed by many in the US as an anti-American club.  I'm not the UN's greatest fan but I don't view it as the Great Satan either.  You can't ignore the fact that in  peacekeeping operations international support is always very important.  Anyway, I didn't limit it to just the UN.  You can get the approval of one of the regional organizations.  The fact that the force is foriegn recruited, Americans would have less problems with it serving under a international command  The force could be created without the restriction but it was a way to reduce other countries opposition to it's formation.

 

[TCBF]

That is exactly what you DON'T want to happen.   The UN is corrupt., and hopelessly so.   Further, "classic peacekeeping" may prove to be ineffective, and to prolong hostilities and delay their logical coconclusion|_
The US is right.   Stay away from the UN.   It is largely a collection of despots who have no use in spreading democracy.

If you want other countries to be free, help them fight for it.

Tom

 

[Sherwood4459]

I didn't mean to debate the virtues and sins of the UN, as I said, I'm not the UN greatest fan.  The debate was about a US foreign legion. The restriction was a way of lessening any political uproar. It just recognizes that the sight of the world's lone superpower starting up a unit like this would not be viewed with favor by alot of people.  Making it a peacekeeping force was for the same reasons, countries may have less of a problem if they knew it was not going to be used as an US intervention force.  The restriction would also not apply to the rest of the US military.  I didn't suggest for a minute the US get the UN's permission for everything the US does.

 

[TCBF]

If you then become just as responsible/worried/guilty about what this unit does as you are the rest of the Armed Forces, it negates any mythical advantages any such unit has.  Bad idea.

Integrate Auslanders in existing units only, and spread them around.

Tom

 

[Sherwood4459]

Leaving aside any other issues, like political problems and what is easier for the US military- 

For those Canadians who would come south to join the American military, how would you like to serve? 

Does the idea of serving in the USMC's or US Army's Maple Leaf Regiment have great attraction or is it just not an issue?

I'm Irish-American who was rised hearing about the US Civil War's Irish Brigade, so I can understand how staying together as a unit might have great appeal.

 

[Cliff]

The Canadian Government has no grounds to dispute how the US handles its immigration laws.

Bingo!

 

[McG]

Does the idea of serving in the USMC's or US Army's Maple Leaf Regiment have great attraction or is it just not an issue?

A US foreign legion would be one thing.  However, a Canadian Regiment in the US Army could very well cause friction between the two nations.

Prior to the US entering the WW I, the Canadian Minister of Militia did actively recruit US citizens into US battalions of the Canadian Army.  These soldiers wore Canadian uniforms, they fought for Canada, and they were paid/fed/clothed/etc by Canada.  These battalions were also quit open about being American.  The US government was vocally opposed to these American Battalion.  All appearances of the word "American" were stripped from the uniforms of the battalions before they went overseas, and all of the battalions ended up being broken-up to reinforce the battalions already in the war.

The US objection was justifiable.  Even though the soldiers fought for Canada & were funded by Canada, they identified themselves as American.  The US objected to Canada fielding units that identified themselves with the US.  I think a similar objection by Canada against US fielded Canadian units would be equally justified.

 

[McAllister]

PJ, regarding these ideas of yours, I can say as a civilian trying for years now to get into the CF,  SIGN ME UP, PHIL. SIGN ME UP.

 

[scm77]

I was going to post this in the other thread, but since this one is at the top I won't bother bumping the other thread up.

PJ D-Dog in the other thread you made (Would you enlist in the USMC if it were open to Canadians) you started off by saying...

In an attempt at gathering some non-scientific data as part of my research, I have created this new poll.

I'm just wondering if you did or do you plan on submitting your research and proposals up your chain of command or if you were just asking because you were curious about Canadians opinions about the USMC.

Basically what is your "research" for, if anything.

Thanks a lot.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I was going to post this in the other thread, but since this one is at the top I won't bother bumping the other thread up.

PJ D-Dog in the other thread you made (Would you enlist in the USMC if it were open to Canadians) you started off by saying...
I'm just wondering if you did or do you plan on submitting your research and proposals up your chain of command or if you were just asking because you were curious about Canadians opinions about the USMC.

Basically what is your "research" for, if anything.

Thanks for asking.  My intent is to gather up enough evidence and place it in a report to send up the chain of command (Recruiting Command) to show how the Marine Corps would be able to meet its projected increase in end strength by modifying Title 10 US Code in allowing natural born Canadians to join the Marine Corps with a green card sponsored by the Marines.

This proposal would be for a trial basis of three years similar to the US Army's trial basis of raising the maximum recruiting age of 35 to 39 for National Guard and Reserves.  I also want to use statistics showing the number of Canadians who served in Vietnam before 1968 when the immigration laws were changed.

I am convinced that if we were to open the Marines to Canadians, we would probably fill up all the boat spaces we want and then some in less than a year.  I estimate 1000 in six months, and that's through word of mouth and no advertising campaigns.  I will propose that it works similar to the J-Visas for natives where they can take their birth certificates with an endorsed recruiter letter to the social security office and get a SSN then join.  A green card could come later after joining the Corps.

Hope this answers your question.

PJ D-Dog

 

[scm77]

Thanks.  That's exactly what I was hoping to hear.

 

[Polish Possy]

If I could join the USMC, I would do so in a heart beat.  PJ D-Dog if you hear anything or find out any new news could you pm me or post it please.

 

[jcsoc]

It is really quite amazing to me that the CF makes it so difficult for people to serve.

now allow me to stray from the topic immediately at hand, it has a tie in somewhere I promise.

I'm at a point right now where I am making a decision regarding what I am to do with my future, or at least a good portion of it.

I live in the States, I was born in Canada, making me a Canadian citizen and I have a cerificate of birth abroad, making me a US Citizen as well, my father being American born.

So I am in the rather unique position of having a moral dilema about what to do.

Any compulsion that I have to join the Canadian Army as opposed to the US Army is based purely in patriotism, theoretically provided with an equal opportunity in each force I would choose the Canadian force. However considering the obvious disparities between the two forces my dilema comes to life.
While to me patriotism to what I do fully consider my first and to a great degree my only country Canada is paramount, I can't say decisively that service in the US would at all undermine that, as I would view my service in the US not so much as a patriotic duty but as a means to advancement, experience and a higher sense of purpose in general.

In my position, from what little I can divine from this message board, many of you would join the US Army given the current circumstances that exist in Canada, what I ask is what prompts you to do this? Is it purely the disadvantages the Canadian Forces suffer compared to that of the US Military, a certain foreign policy the US has adopted that Canada has not, a combination or something else... Any information as to what drives you towards the US military could help me in my decision.

Thank You

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Boys.   Don't get me wrong if you want to go to the US and join their military fill your boots.   But I really don't see this grand exit of good potential CF applicants that you do because there is one big difference between the US military and ours.   People die on a regular basis and I don't think that many of the applicants that I see on a daily basis would be that interested in joining if they knew their chances of getting killed were all of sudden significantly higher.   Sure there are many problems with the CF and I have seen a myriad of them in the last twenty plus years but I would hazard a guess that life in the US military is not that rosy either.   I will agree with you on the fact that Americans certainly treat their service people a lot better and I would certainly love to see more patriotism in this country.

USMC, 82-86.  Sup?  hahaha, good point up there ... gettin kilt IS bad for your career and the enthusiasm of the survivors!

I like the basic premise and there are tons of folk who proposed something similar but not necessarily focussing on Canadians.  Hmmm ... I assume there are a bunch of Canadians postin here but who else in y'all's opinions?

Mainly US vets?

 

[Cliff]

It is really quite amazing to me that the CF makes it so difficult for people to serve.

I don't think it's a CF problem. It's more a reflection of mainstream Canada not wanting to fund a large and well equipped force. Priorities have changed over the years.

I feel for the younger people like yourself who still want to wear a uniform = despite the military being systematically dismantled over the years. Le
 

 

[McAllister]

Hey, Polish, you and I seem to be on the same boat.  We appreciate your efforts PJ.

 

[scm77]

Hey, Polish, you and I seem to be on the same boat.

I am also a passenger in the boat

We appreciate your efforts PJ.

Absolutely

 

[R031button]

It is really quite amazing to me that the CF makes it so difficult for people to serve.

now allow me to stray from the topic immediately at hand, it has a tie in somewhere I promise.

I'm at a point right now where I am making a decision regarding what I am to do with my future, or at least a good portion of it.

I live in the States, I was born in Canada, making me a Canadian citizen and I have a cerificate of birth abroad, making me a US Citizen as well, my father being American born.

So I am in the rather unique position of having a moral dilema about what to do.

Any compulsion that I have to join the Canadian Army as opposed to the US Army is based purely in patriotism, theoretically provided with an equal opportunity in each force I would choose the Canadian force. However considering the obvious disparities between the two forces my dilema comes to life.
While to me patriotism to what I do fully consider my first and to a great degree my only country Canada is paramount, I can't say decisively that service in the US would at all undermine that, as I would view my service in the US not so much as a patriotic duty but as a means to advancement, experience and a higher sense of purpose in general.

In my position, from what little I can divine from this message board, many of you would join the US Army given the current circumstances that exist in Canada, what I ask is what prompts you to do this? Is it purely the disadvantages the Canadian Forces suffer compared to that of the US Military, a certain foreign policy the US has adopted that Canada has not, a combination or something else... Any information as to what drives you towards the US military could help me in my decision.

Thank You

I think it's a combination of the general frustrations felt by many of us in regards to the way we're treated by the government and Canadian people in general. While many support the forces, and equal number seem sto feel we're a waste of money, a relic of the cold war. The government itself pays only lip service to us and has an unreal expectaion of us, that is that we all join to servein peace support opperations. These factors combine to produce an army with a minority of "hard chargers", many of which are the youn gsoldier sinthe combat arms, and a large degree of "just another job" type swhich seem to have flooded the forces. Furthermore the enforcement of this status quo by groups like "reserves 2000" means that little change occurs.

What I'm trying to say is that it's tough to be a motivated Canadian soldiers. Speaking as a reservist that hasn't make much of a commitment, compared to the regs on the boards, I didn't join to be screwed around with, given half baked kit, and be damn near lied to by higher (educational reinbursement) I joined to serve, and to fight. To alot of us, that's what we see the Americans doing, fighting, and getting the support needed to do it. The USMC is perticularaly appealing as it is, from what I've heard, made up almost exclusivly of highly motivated individuals and is employed to do it's job.

  It's not really a hardchoice given to open options, I love my country, but I also feel that what hte US does benifits all the free world, not just the US....most of the time at least.

 

[a_majoor]

As a slight diversion from the topic, I oppose the idea of an American Legion, but for political reasons.

If individuals are motivated enough to cross borders, change citizenship and swear true allegiance to the Constitution of the United States, then more power to them. The key point is these people will become Americans. Individual augmentation by prospective American citizens is the way to go.

An "American Legion" of foreign soldiers will be mercenaries who have been trained and equipped to operate alongside American soldiers and Marines. They will not have the values that native or assimilated Americans have, and be poor representatives of the United States either on foreign duty or in "garrison" in the States. As a simple example, remember the black marketeering Ukrainian soldiers in Bosnia? Imagine if they were equipped to the level of American units, but still had the "local warlord" mentality (or started getting into conflicts over markets with the real local warlords).

The second objection is moral: I would imagine the bulk of these Legionnaires would enlist for pay and the prospects of a better life, but the American public and the "Regular" branches of the US military would see these people as cannon fodder. Far easier to expend someone else's blood than your own.

The third objection springs from the second: if you have the ability to project force and expend someone else's blood, where are the moral restraints to prevent the government from doing so? People who claim America is an Imperial power would finally have a real reason to complain. Currently, the distaste for American blood and treasure being spilled for objectives that are not in the national interest serve to limit the deployment of American military power. (The lesson from Somalia). If it is only Mexican, East European and African "American Legion" troops being dragged through the streets of third world countries, then I suspect there will be less resistance to the use of power to satisfy various whims and local interest groups (could you imagine a fully formed American Legion during the Cuban Missile Crisis or during the 1980s when low level insurgencies were happening in Central America? The low cost option to "send in the Legion" would have been almost irresistible). Of course sending the Legion to secure oil and energy supplies would probably be the first order of business today, if it seems cheaper than the 100% solution of buying it...

There are a lot of lessons from history which are against the use of mercenary armies, ranging from the disintigration of the Greek Polis culture after the Pelleponnesian wars, the disintigration of the "Res Publica Roma", the conduct of the Condotteri armies in Italy during the 1400s and so on. We ignore them at our peril.