Should inform my CoC that I may VR.

[daver22]

Does anyone have any advice about weather or not I should inform my CoC that I have applied to police forces.
seeing as it is not a sure thing I will get hired, I am worried that I may be kept out of further training opportunities if they know I may VR.

 

[Occam]

I've never been a proponent of letting your CoC know that you're looking elsewhere.  I've seen too many situations where they have cancelled training opportunities, and it's even influenced PERs.  Nothing is guaranteed, so you're well within your rights to hold off until you get an employment offer.

 

[1feral1]

Be upfront and honest with your chain of command. The Defence Force is not for everyone (they know this, and you are not the first with such thoughts and will hold no ill feelings - just be sure of your intentions as many have felt this way, VR'd and regretted their hasty decision).

There are queues of more persons who will eagerly fill your spot.

Think long and hard before you act, they might discuss this with you and encourage you to stick things out. How you react is up to you.

Either way, LEO or the Army, you will make a positive comittment to the community at large.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Regards,

OWDU

 

[CountDC]

my vote would be hold off until you receive an offer.  There are those that would withhold training opps because of "why should we train him to just have him release a month later".

I do agree with OWDU on making sure before doing anything - Have seen it happen lots of times where members returned after a hasty decision. 

 

[CountDC]

hope you didn't post your question too many places.

 

[vonGarvin]

As a person who has subordinates, tell your CoC nothing.  I mean, I love surprises. I really do!  Nothing satisfies me more than getting something all lined up for someone, when all of a sudden, (and without warning, I may add), that someone shits in my hand.  "Oh, sorry boss.  I know you did all that work for me, and I do appreciate it, but go fuck yourself, I'm outta here."

So, let me get this straight.  You may VR, but if and only if something better comes along (the police application).  And you don't want to tell your CoC because they may not put you on training?  I mean, how dare they give that jammy go to someone who isn't in the shadows, plug in hand, getting ready to pull it?  WTF are they thinking?

Tell them.   They can help you.  Yes, you may "lose out" on some training, but you know what?  You're already looking at the door,  whereas others aren't.  Your PER won't be influenced, expect maybe the potential part.  I mean, that's just honest.  How much potential do you have when you are getting out?  None.  And if it doesn't pan out, well, like the prodigal son, you'll be welcomed back "into the fold".

EDIT TO ADD: My own opinion is that it sounds to me as though you want your cake and to eat it too.  Tell your chain of command, seriously.  They may actually be able to salvage your military career, find out why you wish to go elsewhere, and maybe give you opportunities to make the forces more attractive to you. 

But if you were a subordinate of mine who came up one day and said "You know, I've been planning this a while, but tomorrow's my last day", and if I had already nominated you for some "jammy good go", I would feel betrayed by the lack of trust and honesty.  I personally believe that you are being selfish and are trying to work the system to your own advantage.  Very shitty indeed.

(And the troops so rightly hate it when their superiors keep shit from them, or lie to them.  Well, that street goes both ways)

 

[Nfld Sapper]

As a person who has subordinates, tell your CoC nothing.  I mean, I love surprises. I really do!  Nothing satisfies me more than getting something all lined up for someone, when all of a sudden, (and without warning, I may add), that someone shits in my hand.  "Oh, sorry boss.  I know you did all that work for me, and I do appreciate it, but go fuck yourself, I'm outta here."

So, let me get this straight.  You may VR, but if and only if something better comes along (the police application).  And you don't want to tell your CoC because they may not put you on training?  I mean, how dare they give that jammy go to someone who isn't in the shadows, plug in hand, getting ready to pull it?  WTF are they thinking?

Tell them.   They can help you.  Yes, you may "lose out" on some training, but you know what?  You're already looking at the door,  whereas others aren't.  Your PER won't be influenced, expect maybe the potential part.  I mean, that's just honest.  How much potential do you have when you are getting out?  None.  And if it doesn't pan out, well, like the prodigal son, you'll be welcomed back "into the fold".

EDIT TO ADD: My own opinion is that it sounds to me as though you want your cake and to eat it too.  Tell your chain of command, seriously.  They may actually be able to salvage your military career, find out why you wish to go elsewhere, and maybe give you opportunities to make the forces more attractive to you. 

But if you were a subordinate of mine who came up one day and said "You know, I've been planning this a while, but tomorrow's my last day", and if I had already nominated you for some "jammy good go", I would feel betrayed by the lack of trust and honesty.  I personally believe that you are being selfish and are trying to work the system to your own advantage.  Very shitty indeed.

(And the troops so rightly hate it when their superiors keep shit from them, or lie to them.  Well, that street goes both ways)

I concur with the TECHNOVIKING... as a Section Commander myself I would like to know if my troops are planing to pull pin before I send their name to higher for courses/taskings/tours/etc.....Also we may even be able to help you with your application......

 

[vonGarvin]

I concur with the TECHNOVIKING

Your concurrence pleases the TECHNOVIKING.  LET US DANCE

 

[zipperhead_cop]

I'm going to suggest a fusion of both opinions. 
Overall, piping your leadership is wrong.  Piping your subordinates is leadership wrong too    That being said, if there are some big deal courses that you may be in the breach for, be a good dude and politely decline and pass them on to one of your buddies.  I'm sure if the course is something that people are keen to get on, letting someone else go won't be a big deal ("What!? A spot opened up for GD's for the next Maple Guardian?!  OMFG!!! YES, send me!!") Most switched on people can come up with a reason other than "I'm bailing on my career". 

That being said.....

We know nothing about who you work for.  I think we can all agree that there are some petty and vindictive types out there (not exclusive to the CF either) who will "punish" you for daring to direct the course of your own life.  There is nothing swift about an application to a police service, so you have time.  Getting through the interview is the hardest part and most people are eliminated at that point.  If all you have done is filled out the original application and still have to do all of the preliminary stuff, there is lots of time. 

My advice:  Keep it to yourself for now.  If you get called for a psych evaluation or medical, you are being considered for hiring by a police service.  The background check will begin shortly after that or will be being done concurrently.  IMO that is the time to tell your organization that you MAY be having to leave.  The average check takes around three weeks in my experience.  Hopefully that would be enough lead time to clear out in a graceful manner. 

Additionally, don't assume the CF will let you go.  I work with a guy that was an MP and had a job offer from our department.  The CF told him that they would not release him from his contract and he initially had to decline the job offer.  It struck me as kind of sour grapes, but it is possible that he didn't give them any sort of heads up (ala what Technoviking is talking about). 

Good luck with whatever path you end up on.

 

[CountDC]

damn - zipperhead had to make sense.  I will change my vote to go with his.

 

[Pusser]

You need to tread carefully and keep in mind that depending on where you sit in your military career, it can take up to six months to be released from the CF.  You especially need to be up front with any prospective employer about that fact.  With that in mind, I would wait until you have something concrete in hand before announcing your impending departure.  It's a bit of a ballet, but you need to try and balance fairness to all parties concerned - including yourself.  I remember years ago, one of my subordinates (who was a tad bitter and twisted) would regularly announce that he was leaving.  It didn't take too long before we stopped taking him seriously.

 

[Occam]

As a person who has subordinates, tell your CoC nothing.  I mean, I love surprises. I really do!  Nothing satisfies me more than getting something all lined up for someone, when all of a sudden, (and without warning, I may add), that someone shits in my hand.  "Oh, sorry boss.  I know you did all that work for me, and I do appreciate it, but go fuck yourself, I'm outta here."

Did you give the subordinate a heads up that you were getting something all lined up for him/her?  ;D 

So, let me get this straight.  You may VR, but if and only if something better comes along (the police application).  And you don't want to tell your CoC because they may not put you on training?  I mean, how dare they give that jammy go to someone who isn't in the shadows, plug in hand, getting ready to pull it?  WTF are they thinking?

If that's a concern, then the CF really ought to take a look at their policy dealing with how much time need be given prior to requesting release.  If the regs say all one needs is 30 days, how can anyone view that as screwing the system?

Yes, you may "lose out" on some training, but you know what?  You're already looking at the door,  whereas others aren't.  Your PER won't be influenced, expect maybe the potential part.  I mean, that's just honest.  How much potential do you have when you are getting out?  None.  And if it doesn't pan out, well, like the prodigal son, you'll be welcomed back "into the fold".

Welcomed back into the fold, at the back of the line for coursing, you mean. 

Now see, this is what I was talking about.  I'm not picking on you, Technoviking, because there are quite a few out there with the same line of thought.  Why should he lose out on training?  He hasn't pulled the pin yet.  He's still on the payroll, racking up pensionable time.  He might not get the job he applied for.  He might get hit by a bus.  What then?  "Damn, I knew we shouldn't have loaded Bloggins on that PowerPoint 2003 course, he's gone out and walked in front of an OC Transpo bus!".  ;D

Seriously, though...why should it affect his PER?  I just took a look through the CFPAS guide under the Potential section, and I don't see anything that says a member considering release should be penalized in any way.  His potential to perform at the next rank is completely unrelated to whether or not he has several irons in the fire with regard to a second career.

What about those who have done their 20, and are looking at Class B reserve jobs?  What about those who have done their 20 and just want to golf for the rest of their days?  (I'd be in that group if my wife let me!)  Should we cease training opportunities for everyone with more than 20 years service because they might pull the pin and be gone 30 days later?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Seriously, though...why should it affect his PER?  I just took a look through the CFPAS guide under the Potential section, and I don't see anything that says a member considering release should be penalized in any way.  His potential to perform at the next rank is completely unrelated to whether or not he has several irons in the fire with regard to a second career.

Taken from the CFPAS Help File:

5B06. Dedication

1.  Emphasize the individual’s dedication towards service in the CF; and

2.  Consider whether the individual gives the CF high priority in relation to self-interests and the amount and frequency of extra effort expended by the individual on behalf of the CF. Recognize and reward the ability to balance organizational needs with own needs. The individual’s willingness to seek and accept additional responsibility assumes greater importance with increasing rank.

 

[Occam]

Taken from the CFPAS Help File:

5B06. Dedication

1.  Emphasize the individual’s dedication towards service in the CF; and

2.  Consider whether the individual gives the CF high priority in relation to self-interests and the amount and frequency of extra effort expended by the individual on behalf of the CF. Recognize and reward the ability to balance organizational needs with own needs. The individual’s willingness to seek and accept additional responsibility assumes greater importance with increasing rank.

Yup.  And when the time comes, nobody will ever be able to question my dedication to the CF, right up until my last day wearing the uniform.

Are you suggesting that dedication to the CF is mutually exclusive with ambitions of a second career?  That one is unwilling to seek and accept additional responsibility, and place the CF's needs above their own right up until one's release date?

I don't think that argument holds up very well.  That would suggest people lack dedication to the CF once they've pulled the pin, and I don't recall anyone mentioning that at Gen Hillier's, VAdm Robertson's or LGen Watt's retirement functions.   

 

[brihard]

Another factor is that your military superiors may be your most valuable reference in applying for a career with the police. Were I a police recruiter and a soldier in the process of applying were unable or unwilling to provide a reference from their current direct supervisor I would be curious. It's not unknown for the police to use 'investigative' referencing; calling up folks you had never intended to have as a reference. Would this fly with Canadian Tire? No. But character is an essential factor in pursuing a career in policing, and I can't help but think that keeping your superiors in the dark would indicate a character deficiency.

Speaking as a leader, if a soldier asked me to be a reference for a police force I would in every case say yes- and I would be completely honest and frank when contacted by that force. If that soldier has comported himself as a subordinate in a way that indicated he might have such character flaws, I would communicate that to recruiters.

That said, if I have a switched on soldier who decides to give me fair notice that he's pursuing something career wise that will be detrimental to his continued employment as a reservist (or within my unit), but he's been a good troop and he's honest with me, I'll do my best to be one of the best references he's got.

Mull it over, but I side with telling them, and continuing to do your best as a soldier until such time as you release. Police applications are not known for their hasty progression.

If you don't mind me asking, roughly what is your role within the forces, and in which province/city are you looking for be a cop?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Yup.  And when the time comes, nobody will ever be able to question my dedication to the CF, right up until my last day wearing the uniform.

This isn't about you...

Are you suggesting that dedication to the CF is mutually exclusive with ambitions of a second career?  That one is unwilling to seek and accept additional responsibility, and place the CF's needs above their own right up until one's release date?

I'm suggesting that a person such as the OP, in the very early stages of their career, looking for a second career, isn't giving "the CF high priority in relation to self-interests."

That would suggest people lack dedication to the CF once they've pulled the pin, and I don't recall anyone mentioning that at Gen Hillier's, VAdm Robertson's or LGen Watt's retirement functions.   

If you say so.  Personally I think that retiring at the end of your career is quite different from releasing near the beginning.  Regardless of that, I was merely answering your query about how this could be reflected in the potential section of a PER.

However, getting back to the OP - why would a lower score for potential matter to somebody who is releasing?

Be that as it may, the CF isn't for everybody and I wish the OP all the best.  If he told his superiors his intentions then he might get some good advice, time off for testing etc, and a recommendation.  I have seen this play out for several people (usually joining a fire service, the RCMP, or a local police force) and it always led to them departing the CF under happier circumstances for ALCON.  Your mileage may vary.

 

[Occam]

I'm suggesting that a person such as the OP, in the very early stages of their career, looking for a second career, isn't giving "the CF high priority in relation to self-interests."

Oh, I don't know.  From what I've gathered from his posts, he:

- is near the end of his first contract, and has signed another 3 year (BE?)
- waited three (3) (!) years for a security clearance.
- appears to have signed up as a Comm Rsch, but did Port Security for two years...

I would say that the CF hasn't been particularly committed to him, no?  (Yes, I know there are backlogs in the security clearance system.  That's just crazy, though.)

However, getting back to the OP - why would a lower score for potential matter to somebody who is releasing?

Well, the scenario is that he doesn't get the job, and gets passed over for training opportunities.  But since you've brought it up, perhaps we can say that once he becomes a police officer, he applies to become a Reservist, and his PER is used in the decision in whether to enroll or not, or in merit boards.  Not particularly fair, is it?

Sorry, but the opportunity for abuse is just too great.  I see no good coming in giving advance notice that one is looking elsewhere for employment.  If someone gives a poor job reference because the member gave short notice that they were looking for other employment, that's just petty and vindictive.  We should be able to rise above that.

My :2c:, although I think I'm in for about a buck and half at this point...

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Another factor is that your military superiors may be your most valuable reference in applying for a career with the police. Were I a police recruiter and a soldier in the process of applying were unable or unwilling to provide a reference from their current direct supervisor I would be curious. It's not unknown for the police to use 'investigative' referencing; calling up folks you had never intended to have as a reference. Would this fly with Canadian Tire? No. But character is an essential factor in pursuing a career in policing, and I can't help but think that keeping your superiors in the dark would indicate a character deficiency.

And that checking won't occur until after he has passed an interview or two.  So why mention what he is looking in to when his getting hired is not remotely on the horizon?  I don't see that as being disloyal or misleading.  It would be no different than a guy wanting to change trades or elements.  You'd probably keep it to yourself until you had a good idea that it was going to happen. 

 

[mariomike]

It would be no different than a guy wanting to change trades or elements.  You'd probably keep it to yourself until you had a good idea that it was going to happen.

Sounds like good advice for dating too.

 

[vonGarvin]

Did you give the subordinate a heads up that you were getting something all lined up for him/her?  ;D 

Yes I do, asshole.  Trust and info sharing goes both ways.  Surprise may be a principle of war, but it's not a principle of administration.