add it all up and we are at 220 or so billion. Putin's war is wearing down on the economy at twice what it is costing him. I see half our deficit being spent on the war and it is probably the same or more for every other country on that list. Perhaps the libs aren't wasting as much as we are accusing them of. After all, none of Trudeau's budgets have included a contingency fund for war that I know of. But with that kind of drag on the economies, perhaps it is time to actually commit and supply the Ukraine with the weapons and take the restrictions off so they can finish the job before Putin can re-build (which he is doing).
Russia in the 21st Century [Superthread]
- Thread starter tomahawk6
- Start date
I genuinely don't want to write this, and this is obviously just my own opinion - I hope I am wrong.
But I've thought this from the start:
This was never a war meant to be won by the west in what we would think of as a cut & dry victory...
This was a war provoked by the west to weaken the Russian military and weaken the Russian economy, all via a non-NATO state, for the secondary bigger geopolitical goal of removing Putin from office sooner than he planned via domestic opposition to the war.
____________________
Essentially, if the west was able to keep the Russians preoccupied fighting this war, it would drain the Russian economy of blood and treasure. Hence why we drip feed the Ukranians just enough stuff to keep the war going, but never enough to actually win the war decisively...
The goal IS to win...eventually. But not right away...
The longer we keep the Russians focused on the Ukraine conflict with their manpower and resources, the better.
The more the Russian body count keeps rising, the better. (As the power imbalance in favor of the US-led West would continue to grow, or more importantly, the power imbalance wouldn't shrink in favor of them...)
It's a sinister and dark perspective to have on the war, and one that I really wish I didn't have.
But when I look at things from a short term and long term perspective militarily, economically, and geostrategically - I find it hard to ignore my gut feeling about it.
I truly do hope there is a cease fire soon, and both sides agree to at least attempt peace talks.
And this time I hope the likes of Boris Johnson and Joe Biden f**k right off, and let the neighbours discuss a solution between themselves. (Oh, and Lindsay Graham can keep his tentacles out of it too)
GR66
Army.ca Veteran
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This point of view completely ignores the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine....both in 2014 taking Crimea and Eastern Donbas and again in 2022 attempting to take the rest of the country. How you can turn blatant territorial aggression by an expansionist Russia that has dehumanized its opposition to the point that its troops regularly conduct horrific war crimes against Ukrainian civilians and prisoners into a Western provocation is beyond me.
I do agree that the West should provide much more aid to Ukraine in order to ensure a swift(er) victory but I think a lot of the reason for the slow aid is 1) most Western countries (other than the US) have let their military atrophy so much that they don't have a lot to give without hollowing out their own capabilities even further, 2) initially there was the suspicion that Russia was going to win and giving Ukraine weapons that would ultimately be lost would be a waste and 3) there is the underlying fear that ultimately Russia might become so desperate that nuclear weapons may become an option to them and that's a genie nobody wants let out of the bottle.
#2 has been proven wrong and I'd argue that short of a total Russian military collapse (which seems highly unlikely at this point) #3 is likely off the table as well. For #1 I think Europe (and Canada) should understand that defeating Russia in Ukraine will save having to deter and defeat Russia in out own backyards so we should give as much as possible to help them. For the USA I can understand the concern about having to defend Taiwan and face potential conflict in the Middle East as well as Ukraine, but overall I think the benefit of essentially removing Russia as a conventional military risk for a generation is worth the risk.
McG
Army.ca Legend
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Like Austria and then Poland both provoked the Nazis. It’s never the fault of the poor little guy who just wants some Anschluss and Lebensraum.
GK .Dundas
Army.ca Veteran
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Yeah! Stop picking on the poor guy.
Putin's just trying to be thebest dictator he can be .
Cut him some slack...
Putin's just trying to be thebest dictator he can be .
Cut him some slack...
Alrighty - so my opinion isn't a popular one. My sincere apologies if I offended anyone, and no I wasn't trying to troll the thread...
And make no mistake, I'm not suggesting in the slightest that what's happened to Ukraine has been justified or reasonable.
I would violently argue that what's happened to Ukraine has been completely unjustified, and straight up awful (awful doesn't describe what I'm trying to convey In the slightest...)
Nor am I justifying Putin doing any of the things he does or has done. Like I said above, this whole thing is beyond tragic & essentially an entire generation of young Ukranian men have been exposed to the horrors of war (as has their entire population)
...So just to be clear... I am NOT PRO Russia in this...
The fact is, is that all of this bloodshed is happening on Ukranian soil - which confirms it is Russia's aggression & invasion of Ukraine that's responsible for it. It isn't Ukrainian troops dying in Russia, it's Russian troops dying in Ukraine...
____________________________________
That being said, I think we are being myopic if we ignore some of the fundamental issues/factors that have had an influence throughout all of this...
- Putin is paranoid of the US-led west
- I don't know if any of us know exactly what happened behind the scenes in 2014/2015, but the CIA had a role to play in the outcome of Ukranian elections. (re, the Victoria Nuland leaked phone call)
Whatever it was that actually happened. It certainly didn't help ease any paranoia Putin had at the time or now (Re, Russian invading Crimea shortly after and the hostilities that continued throughout the Donbas since)
- NATO has expanded eastwards since the end of the Cold War. Putin warned Ukraine that joining NATO was a red line he wasn't about to entertain, and Putin enforces his red lines (ie, Georgia)
(I fully understand why various countries want to join NATO & I fully support them doing so. They had to live under the boot of the Soviet Union, and don't want to experience anything like that ever again...so it absolutely makes sense for them to want to join NATO.)
(My mother was also born and raised in Ukraine, and my grandparents on her side were from Ukraine - so I do totally get why all of those eastern European countries eagerly joined NATO
- The fact is though, is that Putin warned Ukraine against doing so, and this has played a major role in why things transpired the way they have...
_____________________________
We also need to acknowledge some broader facts, which may be inconvenient, but are relevant nonetheless...
- Ukraine's population was 38M in 2021.
- Russia's population was roughly 143M.
- Russia can absorb more casualties than Ukraine can because of their overwhelmingly larger population.
(This is what I mean when I say a Ukranian casualty will have more of an impact on both future military options available to Ukraine than a Russian casualty will. The sheer size difference of the manpower pool each country can draw from is vastly in favor of Russia...)
(As if the population disparity wasn't a big enough problem, but when one breaks down Ukraine's demographics it actually feeds into a bigger future problem they will have - but it's probably been noted in this thread already somewhere along the way)
So none of the above is meant to sound like I'm trolling. None of it is meant to sound Pro-Russian, and certainly not anti-Ukraine.
But the facts are relevant, even if we don't like them.
The Ukranians have given the Russians one hell of a bloody nose I don't think anybody would have expected, and the fight isn't over yet...
The end of this war will happen at a negotiating table, not in total defeat of the enemy for either side. Plain and simple.
(Ukraine wants Russia out entirely, and Russia wants to secure its people and interests in the Donbas...the sooner they sit down and start talking, the better)
_____________________________
(I'll leave the BRICS stuff for a different time)
I'll just mention that Russia has been able to sidestep some western sanctions because of its alliance with China, and they are selling more oil now than they did prior to the war.
Again, I'm not trolling - but these are relevant things that will play into how this awful mess ends
Cheers lads
Merry Christmas to you all
(If you read some threads from the bottom up, like I do, and see this first...skip this post! It's Christmas, and it's a depressing topic probably best left for another day!)
And make no mistake, I'm not suggesting in the slightest that what's happened to Ukraine has been justified or reasonable.
I would violently argue that what's happened to Ukraine has been completely unjustified, and straight up awful (awful doesn't describe what I'm trying to convey In the slightest...)
Nor am I justifying Putin doing any of the things he does or has done. Like I said above, this whole thing is beyond tragic & essentially an entire generation of young Ukranian men have been exposed to the horrors of war (as has their entire population)
...So just to be clear... I am NOT PRO Russia in this...
The fact is, is that all of this bloodshed is happening on Ukranian soil - which confirms it is Russia's aggression & invasion of Ukraine that's responsible for it. It isn't Ukrainian troops dying in Russia, it's Russian troops dying in Ukraine...
____________________________________
That being said, I think we are being myopic if we ignore some of the fundamental issues/factors that have had an influence throughout all of this...
- Putin is paranoid of the US-led west
- I don't know if any of us know exactly what happened behind the scenes in 2014/2015, but the CIA had a role to play in the outcome of Ukranian elections. (re, the Victoria Nuland leaked phone call)
Whatever it was that actually happened. It certainly didn't help ease any paranoia Putin had at the time or now (Re, Russian invading Crimea shortly after and the hostilities that continued throughout the Donbas since)
- NATO has expanded eastwards since the end of the Cold War. Putin warned Ukraine that joining NATO was a red line he wasn't about to entertain, and Putin enforces his red lines (ie, Georgia)
(I fully understand why various countries want to join NATO & I fully support them doing so. They had to live under the boot of the Soviet Union, and don't want to experience anything like that ever again...so it absolutely makes sense for them to want to join NATO.)
(My mother was also born and raised in Ukraine, and my grandparents on her side were from Ukraine - so I do totally get why all of those eastern European countries eagerly joined NATO
- The fact is though, is that Putin warned Ukraine against doing so, and this has played a major role in why things transpired the way they have...
_____________________________
We also need to acknowledge some broader facts, which may be inconvenient, but are relevant nonetheless...
- Ukraine's population was 38M in 2021.
- Russia's population was roughly 143M.
- Russia can absorb more casualties than Ukraine can because of their overwhelmingly larger population.
(This is what I mean when I say a Ukranian casualty will have more of an impact on both future military options available to Ukraine than a Russian casualty will. The sheer size difference of the manpower pool each country can draw from is vastly in favor of Russia...)
(As if the population disparity wasn't a big enough problem, but when one breaks down Ukraine's demographics it actually feeds into a bigger future problem they will have - but it's probably been noted in this thread already somewhere along the way)
So none of the above is meant to sound like I'm trolling. None of it is meant to sound Pro-Russian, and certainly not anti-Ukraine.
But the facts are relevant, even if we don't like them.
The Ukranians have given the Russians one hell of a bloody nose I don't think anybody would have expected, and the fight isn't over yet...
The end of this war will happen at a negotiating table, not in total defeat of the enemy for either side. Plain and simple.
(Ukraine wants Russia out entirely, and Russia wants to secure its people and interests in the Donbas...the sooner they sit down and start talking, the better)
_____________________________
(I'll leave the BRICS stuff for a different time)
I'll just mention that Russia has been able to sidestep some western sanctions because of its alliance with China, and they are selling more oil now than they did prior to the war.
Again, I'm not trolling - but these are relevant things that will play into how this awful mess ends
Cheers lads
Merry Christmas to you all
(If you read some threads from the bottom up, like I do, and see this first...skip this post! It's Christmas, and it's a depressing topic probably best left for another day!)
- Reaction score
- 7,348
- Points
- 1,160
Alrighty - so my opinion isn't a popular one. My sincere apologies if I offended anyone, and no I wasn't trying to troll the thread...
And make no mistake, I'm not suggesting in the slightest that what's happened to Ukraine has been justified or reasonable.
I would violently argue that what's happened to Ukraine has been completely unjustified, and straight up awful (awful doesn't describe what I'm trying to convey In the slightest...)
Nor am I justifying Putin doing any of the things he does or has done. Like I said above, this whole thing is beyond tragic & essentially an entire generation of young Ukranian men have been exposed to the horrors of war (as has their entire population)
...So just to be clear... I am NOT PRO Russia in this...
The fact is, is that all of this bloodshed is happening on Ukranian soil - which confirms it is Russia's aggression & invasion of Ukraine that's responsible for it. It isn't Ukrainian troops dying in Russia, it's Russian troops dying in Ukraine...
____________________________________
That being said, I think we are being myopic if we ignore some of the fundamental issues/factors that have had an influence throughout all of this...
- Putin is paranoid of the US-led west
- I don't know if any of us know exactly what happened behind the scenes in 2014/2015, but the CIA had a role to play in the outcome of Ukranian elections. (re, the Victoria Nuland leaked phone call)
Whatever it was that actually happened. It certainly didn't help ease any paranoia Putin had at the time or now (Re, Russian invading Crimea shortly after and the hostilities that continued throughout the Donbas since)
- NATO has expanded eastwards since the end of the Cold War. Putin warned Ukraine that joining NATO was a red line he wasn't about to entertain, and Putin enforces his red lines (ie, Georgia)
(I fully understand why various countries want to join NATO & I fully support them doing so. They had to live under the boot of the Soviet Union, and don't want to experience anything like that ever again...so it absolutely makes sense for them to want to join NATO.)
(My mother was also born and raised in Ukraine, and my grandparents on her side were from Ukraine - so I do totally get why all of those eastern European countries eagerly joined NATO
- The fact is though, is that Putin warned Ukraine against doing so, and this has played a major role in why things transpired the way they have...
_____________________________
We also need to acknowledge some broader facts, which may be inconvenient, but are relevant nonetheless...
- Ukraine's population was 38M in 2021.
- Russia's population was roughly 143M.
- Russia can absorb more casualties than Ukraine can because of their overwhelmingly larger population.
(This is what I mean when I say a Ukranian casualty will have more of an impact on both future military options available to Ukraine than a Russian casualty will. The sheer size difference of the manpower pool each country can draw from is vastly in favor of Russia...)
(As if the population disparity wasn't a big enough problem, but when one breaks down Ukraine's demographics it actually feeds into a bigger future problem they will have - but it's probably been noted in this thread already somewhere along the way)
So none of the above is meant to sound like I'm trolling. None of it is meant to sound Pro-Russian, and certainly not anti-Ukraine.
But the facts are relevant, even if we don't like them.
The Ukranians have given the Russians one hell of a bloody nose I don't think anybody would have expected, and the fight isn't over yet...
The end of this war will happen at a negotiating table, not in total defeat of the enemy for either side. Plain and simple.
(Ukraine wants Russia out entirely, and Russia wants to secure its people and interests in the Donbas...the sooner they sit down and start talking, the better)
_____________________________
(I'll leave the BRICS stuff for a different time)
I'll just mention that Russia has been able to sidestep some western sanctions because of its alliance with China, and they are selling more oil now than they did prior to the war.
Again, I'm not trolling - but these are relevant things that will play into how this awful mess ends
Cheers lads
Merry Christmas to you all
(If you read some threads from the bottom up, like I do, and see this first...skip this post! It's Christmas, and it's a depressing topic probably best left for another day!)
I doubt if anyone is taking offence. Unpopular opinions are survivable around here.
- Reaction score
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I dont know if the manpower issue is as big a deal in favour of Russia as is made out. Way,way earlier in the Ukraine thread I think I posted an analysis on the success of invasions with respect to population and GDP. A 3 to 1 ratio is not that great historically. Ukraine also has the ability to graft onto the GDP of all of NATO and beyond. Ask yourself which munitions you would rather use SK or NK?Alrighty - so my opinion isn't a popular one. My sincere apologies if I offended anyone, and no I wasn't trying to troll the thread...
And make no mistake, I'm not suggesting in the slightest that what's happened to Ukraine has been justified or reasonable.
I would violently argue that what's happened to Ukraine has been completely unjustified, and straight up awful (awful doesn't describe what I'm trying to convey In the slightest...)
Nor am I justifying Putin doing any of the things he does or has done. Like I said above, this whole thing is beyond tragic & essentially an entire generation of young Ukranian men have been exposed to the horrors of war (as has their entire population)
...So just to be clear... I am NOT PRO Russia in this...
The fact is, is that all of this bloodshed is happening on Ukranian soil - which confirms it is Russia's aggression & invasion of Ukraine that's responsible for it. It isn't Ukrainian troops dying in Russia, it's Russian troops dying in Ukraine...
____________________________________
That being said, I think we are being myopic if we ignore some of the fundamental issues/factors that have had an influence throughout all of this...
- Putin is paranoid of the US-led west
- I don't know if any of us know exactly what happened behind the scenes in 2014/2015, but the CIA had a role to play in the outcome of Ukranian elections. (re, the Victoria Nuland leaked phone call)
Whatever it was that actually happened. It certainly didn't help ease any paranoia Putin had at the time or now (Re, Russian invading Crimea shortly after and the hostilities that continued throughout the Donbas since)
- NATO has expanded eastwards since the end of the Cold War. Putin warned Ukraine that joining NATO was a red line he wasn't about to entertain, and Putin enforces his red lines (ie, Georgia)
(I fully understand why various countries want to join NATO & I fully support them doing so. They had to live under the boot of the Soviet Union, and don't want to experience anything like that ever again...so it absolutely makes sense for them to want to join NATO.)
(My mother was also born and raised in Ukraine, and my grandparents on her side were from Ukraine - so I do totally get why all of those eastern European countries eagerly joined NATO
- The fact is though, is that Putin warned Ukraine against doing so, and this has played a major role in why things transpired the way they have...
_____________________________
We also need to acknowledge some broader facts, which may be inconvenient, but are relevant nonetheless...
- Ukraine's population was 38M in 2021.
- Russia's population was roughly 143M.
- Russia can absorb more casualties than Ukraine can because of their overwhelmingly larger population.
(This is what I mean when I say a Ukranian casualty will have more of an impact on both future military options available to Ukraine than a Russian casualty will. The sheer size difference of the manpower pool each country can draw from is vastly in favor of Russia...)
(As if the population disparity wasn't a big enough problem, but when one breaks down Ukraine's demographics it actually feeds into a bigger future problem they will have - but it's probably been noted in this thread already somewhere along the way)
So none of the above is meant to sound like I'm trolling. None of it is meant to sound Pro-Russian, and certainly not anti-Ukraine.
But the facts are relevant, even if we don't like them.
The Ukranians have given the Russians one hell of a bloody nose I don't think anybody would have expected, and the fight isn't over yet...
The end of this war will happen at a negotiating table, not in total defeat of the enemy for either side. Plain and simple.
(Ukraine wants Russia out entirely, and Russia wants to secure its people and interests in the Donbas...the sooner they sit down and start talking, the better)
_____________________________
(I'll leave the BRICS stuff for a different time)
I'll just mention that Russia has been able to sidestep some western sanctions because of its alliance with China, and they are selling more oil now than they did prior to the war.
Again, I'm not trolling - but these are relevant things that will play into how this awful mess ends
Cheers lads
Merry Christmas to you all
(If you read some threads from the bottom up, like I do, and see this first...skip this post! It's Christmas, and it's a depressing topic probably best left for another day!)
For the short term Russian combat power has been limited as an offensive threat in my opinion. Long term demographic trends can only have been exacerbated by this war. Russian demographic numbers/estimates are a little all over the place but a loss of a few million over the last few years due to Covid/war/emigration is not helpful.
Im not sure Russia can absorb the manpower losses so easily. This is Afghanistan times 10 for them and they are even less equipped to handle it. If they were then what is the fear of initiating mobilization in Russia? Russians in Moscow and St Petersburg are probably ok with a bunch of Muslims and Siberians dying in Ukraine but when it is their own sons?
Of course the situation in Ukraine from a demographic standpoint is probably not much different.
BRICS isnt really a thing unless it means
Belarus/Russia/Iran/China(?)
GR66
Army.ca Veteran
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I don't think you're pro-Putin or trying to troll, but in reading the above you say you understand the desire of formerly occupied Eastern European peoples to achieve freedom, democracy and peace (including joining NATO and the EU) but at the same time also seem to suggest that by supporting these populations in achieving their goals we are being provocative and threatening to Russia. The same Russia that forcefully occupied these countries in the first place.
NATO has never threatened to attack the USSR/Russia unlike the other way around so I'm not sure it's Putin/Russia's paranoia that should be directing our actions.
I certainly don't underestimate the serious challenges that Ukraine continues to face in defending against (and hopefully pushing back) Russia which is why I think it's important for us (the West) to continue and increase our support for them. I also agree that it's obvious that eventually there will have to be some sort of negotiated settlement to end the war. Clearly Ukraine isn't going to drive all the way to Vladivostok so ultimately there will have to be a political agreement on the end state. I just believe that it should be on terms that Ukraine can be satisfied with.We also need to acknowledge some broader facts, which may be inconvenient, but are relevant nonetheless...
- Ukraine's population was 38M in 2021.
- Russia's population was roughly 143M.
- Russia can absorb more casualties than Ukraine can because of their overwhelmingly larger population.
(This is what I mean when I say a Ukranian casualty will have more of an impact on both future military options available to Ukraine than a Russian casualty will. The sheer size difference of the manpower pool each country can draw from is vastly in favor of Russia...)
(As if the population disparity wasn't a big enough problem, but when one breaks down Ukraine's demographics it actually feeds into a bigger future problem they will have - but it's probably been noted in this thread already somewhere along the way)
So none of the above is meant to sound like I'm trolling. None of it is meant to sound Pro-Russian, and certainly not anti-Ukraine.
But the facts are relevant, even if we don't like them.
The Ukranians have given the Russians one hell of a bloody nose I don't think anybody would have expected, and the fight isn't over yet...
The end of this war will happen at a negotiating table, not in total defeat of the enemy for either side. Plain and simple.
(Ukraine wants Russia out entirely, and Russia wants to secure its people and interests in the Donbas...the sooner they sit down and start talking, the better)
_____________________________
(I'll leave the BRICS stuff for a different time)
I'll just mention that Russia has been able to sidestep some western sanctions because of its alliance with China, and they are selling more oil now than they did prior to the war.
Again, I'm not trolling - but these are relevant things that will play into how this awful mess ends
Cheers lads
Merry Christmas to you all
(If you read some threads from the bottom up, like I do, and see this first...skip this post! It's Christmas, and it's a depressing topic probably best left for another day!)
- Reaction score
- 7,348
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- 1,160
The Inner German Border lasted 41 years.
FJAG
Army.ca Legend
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I crossed the border numerous times as a kid to visit my aunts in the east ... until some dickweed put up a honking big wall and minefield on their own side because too many people were sick and tired of communism and leaving the country for the west.
Russians aren't overtly communist anymore; but they're still dickweeds.
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I crossed the border numerous times as a kid to visit my aunts in the east ... until some dickweed put up a honking big wall and minefield on their own side because too many people were sick and tired of communism and leaving the country for the west.
Russians aren't overtly communist anymore; but they're still dickweeds.
The Russians had a choice between Ivan the Terrible and the Mongols' Golden Horde. They chose Ivan. It has been downhill ever since.
You know what...that's good advice
That's a fair take on the population disparity. I was doing some research while posting my book last night (Christmas Eve was obviously quite festive this year...) and had read that low birth rates in the 90's and early 2000's has left the average fighting age male in Ukraine at around 27yrs of age
The details of population stuff tend to be a lot of numbers and graphs, and I tend to take the stuff with a grain of salt because the details are so fluid.
But interesting take on Russia not being able to absorb the casualties as easily as the numbers would suggest. Definitely something to factor in...
I think BRICS will end up playing a bigger role than a lot of us foresee, and sooner than we think. Brazil/Russia/India/China/South Africa being the big 5 behind it, but it now has roughly 30 countries signing up to be a part of it
Within the last month or so, countries have started to buy their oil using their own currency and not using the US dollar.
That's a big deal, especially as the momentum behind BRICS starts to pick up
I think 2024 will be interesting to watch in this space
Putin wants to unite the former soviet union.
He needs the manufacturing power that the former members bring in order to make Russia great again.
He wants a fight with NATO to prove he is strong. I mean Russia is strong to its people and supporters.
Russia does not posses the required expertise, skilled work force or technology required to build his military up to modern standards. Nor to bring his industrialized services to modern standards.
What I am afraid of is he will eventually realize Russia provides Ukriane and the remainder of of the Soviet block nothing of any value. The uses NBC warfare to get his way.
He needs the manufacturing power that the former members bring in order to make Russia great again.
He wants a fight with NATO to prove he is strong. I mean Russia is strong to its people and supporters.
Russia does not posses the required expertise, skilled work force or technology required to build his military up to modern standards. Nor to bring his industrialized services to modern standards.
What I am afraid of is he will eventually realize Russia provides Ukriane and the remainder of of the Soviet block nothing of any value. The uses NBC warfare to get his way.
- Reaction score
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Not happening specifically in USSR 2.0, but not a good look for Canada's immigration system .....
From the piece ....
Canada blocks citizenship for Russian activist convicted for blog posts opposing war
Federal officials are blocking a pro-democracy activist from Canadian citizenship because a Russian court convicted her for blog posts opposing Moscow's invasion of Ukraine.
www.cp24.com
WT Sweet Flying F???????
Last edited:
OW will probably get another video to place along side the one from Hamas thanking us for supporting their efforts in Ukraine. Jagmeet, this is all your faultNot happening IN USSR 2.0, but not a good look for Canada's immigration system .....
From the piece ....Canada blocks citizenship for Russian activist convicted for blog posts opposing war
Federal officials are blocking a pro-democracy activist from Canadian citizenship because a Russian court convicted her for blog posts opposing Moscow's invasion of Ukraine.www.cp24.com
WT Sweet Flying F???????
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