ROTP 2011-2012

[Scott]

Also, how many DEO's have some experience (I know a few) as compared to the RMC candidates?

Your logic isn't pure and as simple as it might seem.

 

[Legend]

An argument like that would prove feasible for trades outside the combat arms. If it takes a DEO an additional year of training to hit battalion, it does not mean he will not succeed at being one of the best and the brightest. For the first rank advancement, I can see the how one vs. the other would prove beneficial. Making it Major and above has nothing to do with your ability to climb the ladder at an early stage.

Good Officers have the ability to command and execute the mission. Great Officers have the ability to keep their arrogance to a minimum, and make the private feel like his job makes the operation succeed.

Or you can look at it this way. Your education path does not get you into special forces. You either got it or you don't. Same applies for superior officers, and officers that make par. Especially for the Infantry.

Furthermore, for all the Ocdt's who think they are going to be that superior officer. Start with PT. If you can't beat the fastest and strongest individual in your platoon, find another trade.

 

[ringknocker82]

Ok, let's begin with the fact that I am not knocking either entry plan, especially since I WAS an ROTP candidate and am now a DEO. I was merely commenting on someones comment that DEO is a better entry plan. Now, let's do the math. Let's take 2 hypothetical 18 year olds. A is going through DEO and B is going through ROTP. We'll make them both in the infantry trade. A goes to university for 4 years and gets a B.A. A is now 22 years old and has to start training. I'm going to use hypothetical numbers for the courses because I cannot recall what the time period was when I went through. So, 15 weeks for BMOQ, 6 months for SLT (that's generous), 14 weeks for CAP, 14 weeks for Phase III and 14 weeks for Phase IV. So, approximately a year and a half for all the training and with wait time between, let's make it an even 2 years. Now, A has to do all this training, therefore, he will be at least 24 before he is fully tained. Now for B. B does BMOQ after his first year at school, CAP after his second, and Phase III after his third. Upon graduation, he has less than a year of training to do (SLT and Phase IV). Let's round it up to a year, B will be 23 when he is a fully trained officer. Mathematically, B's route was shorter. I'm not saying it's better or worse, just shorter. The comment was made that a DEO gets to start their career right out of BMOQ, my point was simply that they also just spent the last 4+ years at university without the benefit of getting necessary training out of the way. I believe that both entry plans have their ups and their downs. At the end of the day, it's not how you get there, but what you do when you get there.

 

[MJP]

Ok, let's begin with the fact that I am not knocking either entry plan, especially since I WAS an ROTP candidate and am now a DEO. I was merely commenting on someones comment that DEO is a better entry plan. Now, let's do the math. Let's take 2 hypothetical 18 year olds. A is going through DEO and B is going through ROTP. We'll make them both in the infantry trade. A goes to university for 4 years and gets a B.A. A is now 22 years old and has to start training. I'm going to use hypothetical numbers for the courses because I cannot recall what the time period was when I went through. So, 15 weeks for BMOQ, 6 months for SLT (that's generous), 14 weeks for CAP, 14 weeks for Phase III and 14 weeks for Phase IV. So, approximately a year and a half for all the training and with wait time between, let's make it an even 2 years. Now, A has to do all this training, therefore, he will be at least 24 before he is fully tained. Now for B. B does BMOQ after his first year at school, CAP after his second, and Phase III after his third. Upon graduation, he has less than a year of training to do (SLT and Phase IV). Let's round it up to a year, B will be 23 when he is a fully trained officer. Mathematically, B's route was shorter. I'm not saying it's better or worse, just shorter. The comment was made that a DEO gets to start their career right out of BMOQ, my point was simply that they also just spent the last 4+ years at university without the benefit of getting necessary training out of the way. I believe that both entry plans have their ups and their downs. At the end of the day, it's not how you get there, but what you do when you get there.

Well now at least I can follow your logic even if it seems to be based on age rather than experience in the military.  The simple fact is that based on your example ONCE joining the military a DEO becomes effective in two years vice the four years for RMC/ROTP folks.  Regardless thanks for clarifying.

 

[ringknocker82]

Well now at least I can follow your logic even if it seems to be based on age rather than experience in the military.  The simple fact is that based on your example ONCE joining the military a DEO becomes effective in two years vice the four years for RMC/ROTP folks.  Regardless thanks for clarifying.

I'm happy that clarified that a bit. The comment was in no ways directed at experience. That's a whole different can of worms.

 

[Rogo]

This is an ROTP 2011-2012 thread. This is not "lets have a debate on what distinguishes a NCM/NCO from an Officer."

B) This thread is a discussion for people waiting on decisions. Not for people who have already been accepted prior and want to brag about their acceptances and try to express their all so little knowledge on how military officers develop.

Wouldn't the rest of what you just wrote add fuel to the fire that you are condemning?

 

[Scott]

Milpoints inbound.

 

[Legend]

Wouldn't the rest of what you just wrote add fuel to the fire that you are condemning?

Negative. Think about what mindset you were in last year on "your" thread. Everytime an individual posted something after the selection hearings you were hoping that it was the first selection. How do you think these boys feel when you're constantly posting about grammar mistakes and how glorious your summer was during basic. There was chatter about NCM's and how some would like to be this kind of leader over their subordinates.

When the time comes that these Ocdts need to prove themself, they will realise when it comes down to real time operations that it does not matter if the private makes a call or the commanding officer of that unit. It is about teamwork, and to make that team work, respect all.

 

[Scott]

respect all.

That sort of flies in the face of the rest of your post.

Respect all. Respect all users and their posts that aim to contribute here.

Unless you want to start moderating and paying the bills?

Get over yourself, please.

Scott
Staff

 

[dapaterson]

The comment was made that a DEO gets to start their career right out of BMOQ, my point was simply that they also just spent the last 4+ years at university without the benefit of getting necessary training out of the way. I believe that both entry plans have their ups and their downs. At the end of the day, it's not how you get there, but what you do when you get there.

From a CF perspective:  DEO = enrol + 1 1/2 years = employable officer.  ROTP = enrol + 4 years = employable officer.  So the DEO provides a usable product sooner, at lower initial and lower long-term cost (pension benefits accrue through university for ROTP).  As well, if we assume a 25 year career, the CF also gets more years of trained service out of the DEO - 23 1/2 vs 21 years.

 

[yoman]

From a CF perspective:  DEO = enrol + 1 1/2 years = employable officer.  ROTP = enrol + 4 years = employable officer.  So the DEO provides a usable product sooner, at lower initial and lower long-term cost (pension benefits accrue through university for ROTP).  As well, if we assume a 25 year career, the CF also gets more years of trained service out of the DEO - 23 1/2 vs 21 years.

Even with ROTP they might still have to wait before we become employable. I still have a years worth of phase training to do after I graduate.

 

[jwtg]

I wonder, is there a correlation between percentage of training success and entry plan?  IE, if I were to make a guess (and it is that- an uninformed guess) I would say that RMC grads are more likely to be successful in their military training.  They have daily exposure to the CF and experience that no DEO (without prior CF time...) could possibly have.  Does anyone know of official figures, if they exist, as to what % of RMC grads successfully complete all their training compared to DEO candidates, or even ROTP Civ U?  I hope to be Civ U ROTP, but I don't expect to receive the same kind of preparation during the year that RMC grads do, and I realize I might have to work a little harder to stay on pace.

All this to say that if the ROTP candidate is more of a sure thing (IF that is the case- I'm not saying that it is) then it would probably make it difficult to compare who is more financially safe and time-efficient as a future officer.

 

[George Wallace]

I wonder, is there a correlation between percentage of training success and entry plan?  IE, if I were to make a guess (and it is that- an uninformed guess) I would say that RMC grads are more likely to be successful in their military training.  They have daily exposure to the CF and experience that no DEO (without prior CF time...) could possibly have.  Does anyone know of official figures, if they exist, as to what % of RMC grads successfully complete all their training compared to DEO candidates, or even ROTP Civ U?  I hope to be Civ U ROTP, but I don't expect to receive the same kind of preparation during the year that RMC grads do, and I realize I might have to work a little harder to stay on pace.

All this to say that if the ROTP candidate is more of a sure thing (IF that is the case- I'm not saying that it is) then it would probably make it difficult to compare who is more financially safe and time-efficient as a future officer.

Not really.  What you will find is that if a ROTP candidate fails out as a Pilot, a Cbt Arms officer or whatever occupation that they were slated for, they will be retained and given another occupation.  An officer candidate from any of the other entry plans will most likely be Released if they are a Training Failure.  Why?  Well the CF has invested heavily for four years to give the ROTP candidate an education and wants to get their monies worth out of them.  They have not invested anything towards candidates coming in from the other Entry Plans, so it is no loss to the CF to give them the boot.  ROTP candidates, if you remember, have to serve a fixed amount of time, depending on their Degree, to pay off their educations.  I personally know of at least one ROTP graduate who retired as a Capt after close to thirty years of service.  So, no a ROTP candidate is not "more of a sure thing".

 

[jwtg]

Not really.  What you will find is that if a ROTP candidate fails out as a Pilot, a Cbt Arms officer or whatever occupation that they were slated for, they will be retained and given another occupation.  An officer candidate from any of the other entry plans will most likely be Released if they are a Training Failure.  Why?  Well the CF has invested heavily for four years to give the ROTP candidate an education and wants to get their monies worth out of them. 

I guess in that sense the ROTP candidate even has the potential to become more of a burden than an investment if they're not quite as capable as they might have seemed at the time of their selection.

I guess the CF can't take the poker approach- money in the pot isn't yours any more, so fold when your hand won't win.

 

[OneMissionataTime]

I guess in that sense the ROTP candidate even has the potential to become more of a burden than an investment if they're not quite as capable as they might have seemed at the time of their selection.

I guess the CF can't take the poker approach- money in the pot isn't yours any more, so fold when your hand won't win.

Totally agree, ROTP is much more heavily invested by the Government IE: Subsidies for School Books and Semesters than DEO, that is the reason we have  ROTP / DEO . I don't know the type of terms of service that DEO's receive but I know ROTP types range from 5 - 8 years of obligatory service.

 

[Rogo]

I wonder, is there a correlation between percentage of training success and entry plan?  IE, if I were to make a guess (and it is that- an uninformed guess) I would say that RMC grads are more likely to be successful in their military training.  They have daily exposure to the CF and experience that no DEO (without prior CF time...) could possibly have.  Does anyone know of official figures, if they exist, as to what % of RMC grads successfully complete all their training compared to DEO candidates, or even ROTP Civ U?  I hope to be Civ U ROTP, but I don't expect to receive the same kind of preparation during the year that RMC grads do, and I realize I might have to work a little harder to stay on pace.

All this to say that if the ROTP candidate is more of a sure thing (IF that is the case- I'm not saying that it is) then it would probably make it difficult to compare who is more financially safe and time-efficient as a future officer.

A slight tangent, but I do recall one Captain in St Jean saying how when it comes in to spots such as getting your jump wings and such, RMC grads are generally chosen rather than Civi U.  Now I can't say this is credible but if it is the case whether it be intentional or not, it is interesting non?

 

[jwtg]

A slight tangent, but I do recall one Captain in St Jean saying how when it comes in to spots such as getting your jump wings and such, RMC grads are generally chosen rather than Civi U. 

That would be a little disappointing- and not just because I hope to be ROTP Civ U.  I'm not sure what factors are weighed when considering who should get spots for things like jump wings, but I would hope that an applicants preference of educational institution would not be one of them.

 

[George Wallace]

If it is indeed true, it may be just a case of "administration".  RMC has all the candidates in one location, not scattered across the land, and can load a large number on a bus and drive for an hour to Trenton, place the candidates on course, and then pick them up when they have completed their last jump.  A cost effective way to qualify a group of pers. 

Bringing in people from all across the land is expensive and involves a fair bit more logistics.

 

[Rogo]

I had meant after they were commissioned and trained.  If true I figure its not due to an official preference probably just the candidates they like more have come from RMC.

 

[Journeyman]

That would be a little disappointing- and not just because I hope to be ROTP Civ U.  I'm not sure what factors are weighed when considering who should get spots for things like jump wings, but I would hope that an applicants preference of educational institution would not be one of them.

Vacancies on Basic Para are pretty scarce, with priority naturally going to those filling parachute billets (CANSOFCOM and the Bn Jump Coys).

"Spare" capacity may go to deserving personel, however deterimined. (I think it was Orwell who commented on some animals' equality  )


/tangent