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Replacing the Subs

You would have to run the numbers on the size of the AIP unit vs fuel storage vs battery storage which I dont have in front of me. The Japanese got rid of the Stirling and increased battery storage.
When picking a submarine replacement how important is the AIP in the decision

France-Scorpene/Shortfin-hydrogen fuel cell
German-212CD- hydrogen fuel cell
Sweden-A26-Stirling-diesel
Japan-Taigei-Li-ion
SK-KS-3-hydrogen fuel cell plus Li-ion

In general you are looking at an 8 or 10m plug for the AIP, does that include the O2 and hydrogen fuel storage? Something you could dispense with an Slowpoke I guess. Are we agnostic on fuel cells?

If the Dutch go German I think we should too. If they go Swedish as is hinted its not as big an advantage in my mind
Does anyone know if the French/Germans/Swedes are moving to Li-ion?
 
suffolkowner said:
You would have to run the numbers on the size of the AIP unit vs fuel storage vs battery storage which I dont have in front of me. The Japanese got rid of the Stirling and increased battery storage.
When picking a submarine replacement how important is the AIP in the decision

France-Scorpene/Shortfin-hydrogen fuel cell
German-212CD- hydrogen fuel cell
Sweden-A26-Stirling-diesel
Japan-Taigei-Li-ion
SK-KS-3-hydrogen fuel cell plus Li-ion

In general you are looking at an 8 or 10m plug for the AIP, does that include the O2 and hydrogen fuel storage? Something you could dispense with an Slowpoke I guess. Are we agnostic on fuel cells?

If the Dutch go German I think we should too. If they go Swedish as is hinted its not as big an advantage in my mind
Does anyone know if the French/Germans/Swedes are moving to Li-ion?
Click to expand...
I think you may have missed @Oldgateboatdriver ’s post.
Nuclear power is the issue with ANY nuclear plant.

If you get people over the hump of that, then you can just forgo the rest of the power issues and go full nuclear propulsion.
 
GR66 said:
The reactor could certainly be scaled up to provide the required power.
Click to expand...
Probably, but that means risks and high costs on such development. I don't know what happened with Slowpoke-3 but it's somehow warning the fact that only one was built and it operated for just a couple of years.

@suffolkowner was not going nuclear in his post.

I know for sure that both Navantia (Spain) and Naval Group (France) are both dealing with the same French Company (don't remember which) to develop Lithium batteries. Also Fincantieri (Ita) has announced their new boats will feature Li-batteries.

I am more interested on the Hydrogen storage system to be used in the German-Norwegian Type 212 CD. It is not clear if they will continue with metal-hydrides or if they are changing to the ethanol reformer, which must be quite advanced already.

French, BTW, have their own system using a diesel-fuel reformer to produce hydrogen, which has the benefit of using the same fuel for AIP and for snorting. However it has not been implemented in any boat yet.

The French and Spanish boats use such 8-10m "plug extension" which include O2, fuel storage and reformer. Germans till now distribute their O2 and metal-hydrides tanks between the inner and the outter hulls IIRC.
 
Sorry, late to edit my previous post.
For the Type 212 CD should say Methanol (not ethanol) reformer.
 
KevinB said:
I think you may have missed @Oldgateboatdriver ’s post.
Nuclear power is the issue with ANY nuclear plant.

If you get people over the hump of that, then you can just forgo the rest of the power issues and go full nuclear propulsion.
Click to expand...
I wasnt arguing for the slowpoke although I am intrigued. We could say they were just underwater portable medical isotope production facilities or something
JMCanada said:
Sorry, late to edit my previous post.
For the Type 212 CD should say Methanol (not ethanol) reformer.
Click to expand...
yes and the S80 is running on ethanol 100% I believe
 
suffolkowner said:
yes and the S80 is running on ethanol 100% I believe
Click to expand...
There will be four S80, actually S-81 to S-84. The first one, being in the last trials this year, and the second, are to be delivered without AIP. It will be installed in their 1st long-term overhaul (after about 5-6 years). It is expected the other two will be delivered with it.

This AIP uses ethanol reformer plus fuel cell, but for battery recharge with snorkel (or surfaced navigation) they have 3x 1,200 KW DG.
 
JMCanada said:
There will be four S80, actually S-81 to S-84. The first one, being in the last trials this year, and the second, are to be delivered without AIP. It will be installed in their 1st long-term overhaul (after about 5-6 years). It is expected the other two will be delivered with it.

This AIP uses ethanol reformer plus fuel cell, but for battery recharge with snorkel (or surfaced navigation) they have 3x 1,200 KW DG.
Click to expand...
that makes sense but is this a mistake?

www.naval-technology.com

Spanish Navy’s first S-80 Plus-class submarine to begin mooring trials

The Spanish Navy’s first submarine of the S-80 series, the S-81 ‘Isaac Peral’, is set to undergo mooring trials.
www.naval-technology.com www.naval-technology.com

"The submarine is powered by three bio-ethanol engines, a 3,500kW main electric engine, and a 300kW atmosphere-independent propulsion system."

or am I misunderstanding?
 
Sometimes journalists make mistakes when they don't have tech. background.
The engines are diesel MTU 396 design.
3,500 KW electric motor .... ok
300 KW AIP .... ok (power of the fuel cell, reformer supposed to produce enough hydrogen for it)

Bio-ethanol engines would not make sense because diesel energy density is higher than that of ethanol, so... keep ethanol for AIP only and use robust & proven marine DGs.

You may find a bilingual full report down here (pdf download)
S-80 IDS report June-2021

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
JMCanada said:
Probably, but that means risks and high costs on such development. I don't know what happened with Slowpoke-3 but it's somehow warning the fact that only one was built and it operated for just a couple of years.

@suffolkowner was not going nuclear in his post.

I know for sure that both Navantia (Spain) and Naval Group (France) are both dealing with the same French Company (don't remember which) to develop Lithium batteries. Also Fincantieri (Ita) has announced their new boats will feature Li-batteries.
Click to expand...
According to this article, albeit three years old, Naval Group has been working on lithium-Ion batteries for some time; possibly for the Shortfin Barracuda they are offering to the Netherlands?
 
According to a recent paywalled Globe and Mail interview with Vice-Admiral Topshee, the RCN is sending a group to Korea and Japan in May with the intent on scouting out options for the future submarine procurement. He specifically named the South Korean diesel-electric KSS-III as being a design that likely meets Canada’s requirements of being deployed for multiple months and covering thousands of nautical miles, specifically including to and from the Arctic.

South Korea offers an export version named DSME-3000 which is currently being looked at by India. If Asian submarine designs are on the table potentially, Japan and their Soryu/Taigei designs could be another strong competetor to the European offerings.
 
Rainbow1910 said:
According to a recent paywalled Globe and Mail interview with Vice-Admiral Topshee, the RCN is sending a group to Korea and Japan in May with the intent on scouting out options for the future submarine procurement. He specifically named the South Korean diesel-electric KSS-III as being a design that likely meets Canada’s requirements of being deployed for multiple months and covering thousands of nautical miles, specifically including to and from the Arctic.

South Korea offers an export version named DSME-3000 which is currently being looked at by India. If Asian submarine designs are on the table potentially, Japan and their Soryu/Taigei designs could be another strong competetor to the European offerings.
Click to expand...
That escalated quickly.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Because a RCN team is going on TD? I wouldn’t link this to US govt pressure.
Click to expand...
I would add our sudden desire to buy Boeing’s P9 for > $9 billion and OTH radars > $3 billion. Those purchases were not accounted for and gets in the way of yet more social programs. And a government that relies in part on Quebec votes seemed to outright ignore Bomberdier’s whining money pit model.
 
I think you mean P-8A because the P-9 was a McDonnel Douglas proposal for an ASW plane in the late 1980's. As for Bombardier, they are now down to making only their business jets. I just can't see them being able to turn one of their larger Global Express into an efficeint long range ASW plane (Heck! I am not sure it could take off with just a couple of 46's under the wings).
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I think you mean P-8A because the P-9 was a McDonnel Douglas proposal for an ASW plane in the late 1980's. As for Bombardier, they are now down to making only their business jets. I just can't see them being able to turn one of their larger Global Express into an efficeint long range ASW plane (Heck! I am not sure it could take off with just a couple of 46's under the wings).
Click to expand...
You cannot external carry a Mk-46 on anything other than a helicopter. Period.
 
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