Replacing the Subs

[calculus]

Article on the Type 212 CD in the latest edition of CDR:

Volume 30 Issue 5 - Canadian Defence Review

canadiandefencereview.com

 

[Underway]

The article is quite good and highlights a lot of industry stuff many of us don't think about. Like tech transfer, training, and the fact 70% if the contract cost will be spent in Canada.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting read, even though the translation from Korea into English is a bit dodgy/confusing at times.

The main take away (for me) was the 'conflict' between the 2 existing SK shipbuilding who are building the existing KS-III subs and who are both pitching to win the Polish sub contract as well as ours. This bad blood between the 2 ship builders has not gone un-noticed by the Poles and according to the article is counting against them in their selection. From the 50,000 foot level, it sounds a bit like Davie and Irving both building the CSC for Canada and both trying to win contracts to build the CSC's for others around the world....

Poland has ordered three hybrid submarines with diesel engines and batteries as propulsion systems.​

Poland has ordered three hybrid submarines with diesel engines and batteries as propulsion systems. .. - MK

Poland has ordered three hybrid submarines with diesel engines and batteries as propulsion systems. The so-called "Orca Project" has a project budget of about 3.4 trillion won. As a result, South Kor..

www.mk.co.kr

 

[Czech_pivo]

An article written in the US about our desire (and ability) to expand our submarine force.

Canada’s Submarine Nightmare Begins in the Arctic

It’s great to see Canada admit its navy needs significant modernization and expansion, especially in submarines. It remains to be seen, however, how Canada could ever develop such a submarine force in any meaningful timeline—if ever.

nationalinterest.org

Canada’s Submarine Nightmare Begins in the Arctic​

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Interesting that Ottawa let the RCN's submarine branch "atrophy" to the largest number of subs we ever had at one time. Normally, you atrophy down to some number.

 

[KevinB]

Interesting that Ottawa let the RCN's submarine branch "atrophy" to the largest number of subs we ever had at one time. Normally, you atrophy down to some number.

Well from a view point down here anything under 50 is insignificant

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I didn't say it was significant, Kevin. I am just saying that the article's use of "atrophy" gives the false impression that we had a much more significant submarine arm before now, and it went down. In fact, had the author pointed out, correctly, that the current four submarines is actually the largest our sub forces have ever been, it would have made his argument that reaching a fleet level of 12 will be very difficult even stronger, IMHO.

 

[suffolkowner]

how many days at sea for our Subs over our ownership? Have those days atrophied?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The number of days varies, as is normal in small sub fleet operations. Currently, the biggest impediment to maximal use is manning, not the state of the fleet.

 

[Underway]

An article written in the US about our desire (and ability) to expand our submarine force.

Canada’s Submarine Nightmare Begins in the Arctic

It’s great to see Canada admit its navy needs significant modernization and expansion, especially in submarines. It remains to be seen, however, how Canada could ever develop such a submarine force in any meaningful timeline—if ever.

nationalinterest.org

Canada’s Submarine Nightmare Begins in the Arctic​

Some misreading of Russia's readiness in the Arctic. Ukraine conflict caused them to strip quite a few of their arctic resources, units and weapons and send them to the front. This has given us a minor reprieve.

Also Canada and the US are negotiating an arctic boundary treaty in the Arctic similar to what Canada did with the Danish (on Hans Island). The US acts as if the NWP is Canadian even if they dont recognize it as such officially.

That being said, yah history is definitely not on our side to get this sub program rolling very quickly.

 

[suffolkowner]

there is supposed to be a Canadian/SK meeting/announcement tomorrow i think

edit

Media Registration – Canadian and Korean defence and foreign ministers to meet in Ottawa - Canada.ca

October 28, 2024 – The Honourable, Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and The Honourable, Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence, will meet with Republic of Korea Foreign Minister Cho Tae-yul and Minister of National Defence Kim Yong-hyun to deepen our close cooperation and work...

www.canada.ca

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The US acts as if the NWP is Canadian even if they dont recognize it as such officially.

They actually do recognize the NWP officially as Canadian territorial waters - which it is as there are no way to enter it or exit it without passing within 12 NM of Canadian land. What they don't recognize is Canada's claim that they are internal waters where Canada could do whatever it wants, including refusing access to anyone at any time for no reason whatsoever if we so wished. Moreover, the US considers the NWP - even though Canadian territorial waters - as an international strait, with all the International Law of the Sea consequences that come with that, such as the right for all nation's ships to use for innocent passage without any impediment from the nation state which owns the waters.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That being said, yah history is definitely not on our side to get this sub program rolling very quickly.

If you want subs quickly you just need to ask the Premier of BC, we did it before, we can do it again. Plus likley more subs have been built here than anywhere else in Canada.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Some misreading of Russia's readiness in the Arctic. Ukraine conflict caused them to strip quite a few of their arctic resources, units and weapons and send them to the front. This has given us a minor reprieve.

Also Canada and the US are negotiating an arctic boundary treaty in the Arctic similar to what Canada did with the Danish (on Hans Island). The US acts as if the NWP is Canadian even if they dont recognize it as such officially.

That being said, yah history is definitely not on our side to get this sub program rolling very quickly.

National Interest is a bit of a rag regarding accurate defence takes, so them being off base here regarding basic facts isn't surprising. The article itself doesn't go into any detail at all, instead sitting and making generalities about Canadian procurement and ignoring the fact that this procurement at hand is going to be going abroad, likely to avoid many of the domestic production pitfalls typical of our programs. Ironically as the years go on and the Arctic becomes more and more open, it becomes easier and easier for conventional submarines to operate further North.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I didn't say it was significant, Kevin. I am just saying that the article's use of "atrophy" gives the false impression that we had a much more significant submarine arm before now, and it went down. In fact, had the author pointed out, correctly, that the current four submarines is actually the largest our sub forces have ever been, it would have made his argument that reaching a fleet level of 12 will be very difficult even stronger, IMHO.

Maybe the author was referring to the amount of time on patrol these 4 have achieved over their lifespan vs the previous Oberon's? These 4 haven't had the best track record over the last 5yrs or so.

 

[Czech_pivo]

there is supposed to be a Canadian/SK meeting/announcement tomorrow i think

edit

Media Registration – Canadian and Korean defence and foreign ministers to meet in Ottawa - Canada.ca

October 28, 2024 – The Honourable, Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and The Honourable, Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence, will meet with Republic of Korea Foreign Minister Cho Tae-yul and Minister of National Defence Kim Yong-hyun to deepen our close cooperation and work...

www.canada.ca

If the Poles choose these subs as well as us, I really like the anchoring of a European base and a S. Korean base for re-supply and maintenance options for our fleet - 2 in the east and 2 in the west.

 

[dimsum]

If the Poles choose these subs as well as us, I really like the anchoring of a European base and a S. Korean base for re-supply and maintenance options for our fleet - 2 in the east and 2 in the west.

Cue influx of CAF submariners with Polish partners coming back to Canada

 

[Czech_pivo]

there is supposed to be a Canadian/SK meeting/announcement tomorrow i think

edit

Media Registration – Canadian and Korean defence and foreign ministers to meet in Ottawa - Canada.ca

October 28, 2024 – The Honourable, Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, and The Honourable, Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence, will meet with Republic of Korea Foreign Minister Cho Tae-yul and Minister of National Defence Kim Yong-hyun to deepen our close cooperation and work...

www.canada.ca

Maybe a roadmap of what may be announced on Nov 1 during the meeting?

Ottawa should get serious about the Canadian-Korean defense partnership​

Ottawa should get serious about the Canadian-Korean defense partnership - Breaking Defense

Analyst Andrew Erskine writes that Canada missed a recent opportunity to strengthen military ties in the Pacific - but says its not too late for Ottawa to increase its presence in the region.

breakingdefense.com

 

[KevinB]

Maybe the author was referring to the amount of time on patrol these 4 have achieved over their lifespan vs the previous Oberon's? These 4 haven't had the best track record over the last 20yrs or so.

FIFY

 

[Halifax Tar]

If the Poles choose these subs as well as us, I really like the anchoring of a European base and a S. Korean base for re-supply and maintenance options for our fleet - 2 in the east and 2 in the west.

If we're going to have a FOB for Naval Forces in Europe my suggestion would be Souda Bay, Crete.

Get the yanks to give us some square footage at NAS Souda Bay and push forward some stores and Log and Eng pers.