Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

I found this article from a few years ago that specifically addresses some of the design considerations for under-ice operations. It's very interesting, and suggests that even nucs have "challenges" operating up there. I would think it unlikely that the Korean subs were designed with this purpose in mind, so maybe not the best option after all.

https://www.naadsn.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Policy-Primer_Some-Design-Considerations-for-Arctic-Capable-Submarines_Choi-and-Lajeunesse.pdf

No DE sub builder builds for under ice ops, it's the development of better batteries and AIP that make it possible today. It may be one DE design is slightly better than the other for ice edge work. But that will be one one consideration in a whole mix of needs.

 

[brihard]

Following the "new established tradition" of four-letters acronyms, will these be called SSKA (attack submarines, Arctic)?
maybe SSKM (M for missiles)?
or just SSKT? (lol)

Apart from that, some news on the Indian submarines procurement process:

Germany and Spain complete AIP submarine trials for Indian Navy

Germany and Spain successfully complete AIP submarine trials for Indian Navy.

www.armyrecognition.com

I was reading that newer AIP models are getting tagged as ‘SSP’. Anyone in the community able to say this isn’t out to lunch?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That kind of negative talk will lose you social credit points...Sunny Ways my friend!

Don't worry....the personnel issues will balance themselves!

Well brand new Subs with builder support might help a bit with recruitment and retention

 

[Maxman1]

I think K meant Hunter-Killer and SS was just general submarine. And looking it up, I think a non-nuclear missile sub would be SSG or SSB.

 

[Underway]

SS - "subsurface"
K - hunter killer
B - ballistic missile
G - guided missile
N - nuclear
P - air independant propulsion (at least with the USN)

SSN - actually stands for Attack Submarine, Nuclear
SSK - hunter killer submarine, diesel
SSP - hunter killer submarines, AIP

USS Thresher was supposed to be an SSKN but the USN decided to merge the attack and hunter killer names together and make them interchangeable in a nuclear boat.

 

[Grimey]

Looks like he’s swallowed some negative waves.

 

[OldSolduer]

SS - "subsurface"
K - hunter killer
B - ballistic missile
G - guided missile
N - nuclear
P - air independant propulsion (at least with the USN)

SSN - actually stands for Attack Submarine, Nuclear
SSK - hunter killer submarine, diesel
SSP - hunter killer submarines, AIP

USS Thresher was supposed to be an SSKN but the USN decided to merge the attack and hunter killer names together and make them interchangeable in a nuclear boat.

Ok the Thresher was lost at sea. What’s the official story?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ok the Thresher was lost at sea. What’s the official story?

Poor joint brazing on a weld.

Led to the whole SUBSAFE program being developed.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Poor joint brazing on a weld.

Led to the whole SUBSAFE program being developed.

Turned out to be a near fleet wide problem. Rickover went on the warpath.

 

[FSTO]

Globe and Mail Cartoon today.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The Globe and Mail isn’t fooled.

 

[FSTO]

The Globe and Mail isn’t fooled.

Lots of eye-rolling at C-Navy this am.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am all for a new submarine fleet.

But it isn’t going to happen this decade.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am all for a new submarine fleet.

But it isn’t going to happen this decade.

And I believe announcing a new submarine fleet was done cynically and deliberately by this Government, knowing that it is so complex a project that it can’t possibly deliver any results and will have a good of collapsing under it’s own weight due to lack of project staff, contractor infighting and infighting between PSPC/Industry Canada and DND….

 

[YZT580]

And I believe announcing a new submarine fleet was done cynically and deliberately by this Government, knowing that it is so complex a project that it can’t possibly deliver any results and will have a good of collapsing under it’s own weight due to lack of project staff, contractor infighting and infighting between PSPC/Industry Canada and DND….

If you think that you have to believe that NATO does as well. Trudeau and BLair will have to show something more substantial than a future sub programme to get out of the hallway and back into the room.

 

[Kirkhill]

All this talk about operations under the ice misses the point, I believe.

It is sufficient for the RCN to control access to the Arctic Archipelago and the Northwest Passages. If Canada can declare the Archipelago a sub-free zone by controlling access, establishing gate guards, and following the edges of the ice, then it will be contributing to securing the Northern Flank of the alliance.

AOPS/SSKs following the ice.
UUVs (of all sizes launched from the AOPS, SSKs and fixed installations) operating under the ice.
Torpedoes and Missiles (including ASROCs and CAPTORS)
The ice being monitored for breaches by satellites, RPAS, P8s and Wedgetails or Erieyes.
Response to breaches by F35s, LRUAVs like the Kratos drones and like HIMARS with 500 km PrSMs.

Area Denial.

Explorer AUV - International Submarine Engineering

Modularity and Ease of Maintenance The Explorer class of AUV is a modular vehicle comprising a forward free-flooding section, full diameter pressure hull and a free flooding aft section. It is engineered for longevity and upgradeability and can be easily … Continue reading →

ise.bc.ca

Theseus AUV - International Submarine Engineering

ise.bc.ca

The requirement driving the development of Theseus was the laying of long lengths of fiber-optic cable under the Arctic ice pack. The project was successfully completed with two deployments to the Artic with the second culminating in the laying of several 220 km cables in 600 meter water depths under a 2.5 meter thick ice pack, establishing an AUV endurance record of over 60 hours – all under ice.

The pressure hull payload bay and sensor suite of the Theseus AUV are configurable and can be adapted or replaced with new modules designed to support a wide variety of missions and tasks. The large payload bay of the vehicle is ideal for the storage and launching of a number of smaller AUVs. The variable ballast system in the vehicle also enables it to be “parked” on the bottom for extended periods of time until it is awakened by external signal or at a programmed predetermined time.

The Explorer AUV is renowned for its low operating costs, flexibility and exceptional unsupervised long-range capability. An ISE manufactured Explorer AUV completed more than 10 days of continuous under ice operations in the Artic, covering more than 1000 km of continuous unsupervised surveying with charging and data transfer taking place below the ice.

Charging and data transfer under the ice. Laying cable. Sitting dormant/passive. Listening watch. Replaceable. Silent report.....

 

[Underway]

I am all for a new submarine fleet.

But it isn’t going to happen this decade.

This decade (20's?) might be a hard push, Korea could do it as they have the capacity to start building and deliver within 5 years. Within a decade though, I'll take that bet.

It is sufficient for the RCN to control access to the Arctic Archipelago and the Northwest Passages.

This is exactly the plan or at least monitor access. Arctic approaches just like we monitor the Halifax and Vancouver approaches.

 

[suffolkowner]

And I believe announcing a new submarine fleet was done cynically and deliberately by this Government, knowing that it is so complex a project that it can’t possibly deliver any results and will have a good of collapsing under it’s own weight due to lack of project staff, contractor infighting and infighting between PSPC/Industry Canada and DND….

This decade (20's?) might be a hard push, Korea could do it as they have the capacity to start building and deliver within 5 years. Within a decade though, I'll take that bet.


This is exactly the plan or at least monitor access. Arctic approaches just like we monitor the Halifax and Vancouver approaches.

It's unlikely to be up to Trudeau. He should stop making any plans after October 2025

 

[OldSolduer]

It's unlikely to be up to Trudeau. He should stop making any plans after October 2025

IF Canada REALLY wants subs the time is now to seek those that can build them. Not a year or two from now.

 

[Underway]

IF Canada REALLY wants subs the time is now to seek those that can build them. Not a year or two from now.

That's really the problem. Its going to be 2025 before they even get a contract signed. And with billions on the line you don't want to get this to wrong.