Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[jbeach95]

First of all from what I understand he was given a legal and reasonable order, he was not being asked to machine gun defenceless POW's.  Therefore refusing to remove his headgear seems like insurbodination to me.

You understand incorrectly. The Court Martial Appeal Court ruled that the order was unlawful (and ipso facto unreasonable).

My second point. How would a Christian feel if he/she was forced to observe (for example) Islamic customs and practices? The CF should not force people to observe one religion or another. People should be free to practice whatever religion (or lack thereof), but not be forced to do so.

As usual, the CF trails behind in modernization of government and social change. This not only applies to multiculturalism, but also workplace safety and environmental protection (at least in my experience, and this should probably be saved for another thread).

It seems that I was right that we couldn't prevent the downhill direction of this discussion again. Too many people take this issue too seriously and emotionally to have a rational, civilized conversation. Before people start to attack me for saying this, I am not necessarily excluding myself. I just think that many people here are talking from the heart, not from the brain. Perhaps the topic should be locked for good?

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Knowing the other persons answer is seldom helpful.  Hearing how the other person sees the question is the part that teaches you something.  I do not think this thread should be locked unless it degenerates into an exchange of insults.  I think the debate needs to be had, because I think that most people are striving towards the shared goal of the best for the service and those in it.  We all know what each others stances are, but this is one of the best ways I know to find why we all feel that way. 
    I'm not saying that we will all magically come to agreesment, but perhaps a clearer understanding of each others viewpoints can allow those of us who either shape policy, or have the ears of those that do, to find a way of accomidating the needs of the service in a manner more acceptable to all.

 

[the 48th regulator]

No,

I only see you degenerating this thread downhill, such as with this question;

My second point. How would a Christian feel if he/she was forced to observe (for example) Islamic customs and practices? The CF should not force people to observe one religion or another. People should be free to practice whatever religion (or lack thereof), but not be forced to do so.

Why would you feel  a Christian would have a problem with Muslim ceremony?  You obviously have biases that you bring out, and hid behind the fact that you pointed out that this thread would fall apart.  However, you are the only one bringing to the table uncalled for questions.   How many Christians in our military have been forced to abide by Muslim customs?  Bosnia, Qatar, Kuwait, Afghanistan...something as simple as having a beer with a mate to talk about the days events has been taken away...why?  Against the local "Religious" customs.  So to answer your questions, many a Christian has done that and carried on.

Now don't go picking fly poop from pepper with my analogy of booze and religion, answer the context with regards to your question.

dileas

tess

 

[cameron]

In response to JDBeach, why should this topic be locked, simply because you disagree with some of the opinions expressed?  I've had several replies criticizing my post, all of which I have taken in stride because difference of opinion is healthy and none of the replies have been anything that I have (so far) found offensive.  It was my understanding that army.ca was founded precisely for the purpose of providing a forum where issues affecting the canadian forces can be debated and differences of opinion aired while still allowing CF members and supporters to maintain mutual respect for each other.  If the directing staff decide to lock this topic then its their call and i'll respect hat, but I ask again, why should it be locked simply YOU disagreee with an opinion?

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I personally think that things get locked a little too quickly around here. Unless insults or nasty stuff is happening let the conv go. Kind of like the ref  in the hockey game giving too many penalties and slowing up the play.....let em play ref!

 

[geo]

Sooo... Cameron,
You've stated & we've responded.... care to discuss your views any further?

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

The question was asked earlier of one of the Christian posters how they would feel being asked to participate in a Muslim ceremony.  Well that's a bit of a non issue.  I remember having to keep our sleeves down so as not to offend the Muslim population, getting a longer handout on local does and don'ts for locals than the (always bizarre) UNROE.  No big deal, their culture, their country, we accommodate.  As far as religious ceremonies go, I don't recall our Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindu, the two Wiccans, the dozen or so Atheists, or my own Heathen self having a problem with it; nor any of the multiple Christian denominations that would object to the symbolism/language for doctrinal reasons.  In short, we have never had a military that one size ever fit all, and our Chaplains have long worked to serve all their soldiers spiritual needs, whatever their individual creeds.

 

[geo]

Heh... Allah after all is the arab word for God.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Heh... Allah after all is the arab word for God.

Go way.


You find that out all by yer self 

dileas

tess

 

[jbeach95]

I did not mean to single out Islam, as was just using it as an example (hence my 'for example' comment). It could apply to any religion. I understand the utility of complying with local customs on an operational tour, out of respect for their beliefs. However, I do not believe that it is appropriate to force people into practicing any religion (or lack thereof), especially in Canada where the event in question occurred. Would a Christian be offended if he was forced to pray towards Mecca five times a day? While this is a more extreme case of forcing religion on someone, where does one draw the line? Is forcing just a little bit okay, like removing one's headdress for prayer?

I never hid my biases at all. In fact, I pointed out that I, just like everyone else, am not immune to such biases.

Okay, about the thread being locked. At this point, perhaps there is no need to do so. But this thread has been locked at least twice before (as long as I've been following it), and I see the trend continuing. Since it was opened the last time, it has not degenerated to the point it has before. But it seemed to me like it was on that path once again. So no, not since the last time it was opened has there been a need to lock it. I was just looking at the big picture. I don't mind meaningful conversation. I just thought that we could prevent this topic from becoming an exchange of insults (again), and that the only practical way to do so would be by locking it permanently. Please, prove me wrong.

 

[GUNS]

Cameron has to understand that when someone joins his/her country's Armed Forces, life as they knew it changes.

Their parental guidance is assumed by their Sr. NCO's and Officers.

Their brothers and sisters are their fellow soldiers.

And their "God" while in uniform, is their weapon, for it has the power of life or death.

 

[deedster]

Although I am still just a civilian. GUNS, well stated!

 

[the 48th regulator]

And their "God" while in uniform, is their weapon, for it has the power of life or death.

Actually no, the RSM is....but I digress.

dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

Cameron has to understand that when someone joins his/her country's Armed Forces, life as they knew it changes.

Their parental guidance is assumed by their Sr. NCO's and Officers.

Their brothers and sisters are their fellow soldiers.

And their "God" while in uniform, is their weapon, for it has the power of life or death.

(And I'd been trying to stay out of this thread.)

Actually (to maintain your analogy), I would say their "God" while in uniform is that ethical and morale code established by the laws and regulations of the nation, expressed through legal orders and (when needed) ROE, which set the conditions under which life may have to be taken in accordance with the dictates of that "religion."

But that is over-simplifying the acceptance of a formal set of rules and conditions for behaviours that do not have to replace one's chosen religious faith, as long as one can find the appropriate personal compromise for both to be followed.  Military service and religious beliefs do not have to be mutually exclusive, those who choose to make them so do so because they want (for whatever purpose) to create that strife.  Perhaps it is the externalizing of an internal conflict, or perhaps it is for the attention it brings them.  When one decides that the two are mutually exclusive, it is up to the individual to find their own higher morale path and leave one "fiath" or the other to the degree necessary to maintain the dictates of the one they choose to have priority for them.

 

[geo]

Heh.... I resemble that
(but gave it up for lent)

 

[cameron]

I've tried to send a response at least twice before, I don't know if the problem is with my ISP (Cable and Wireless is notorious for its poor service) or not but the post just won't go through.  Anyway first of all I see no reason why this topic should be locked, such discussion is healthy.  I've received a lot of criticism for my post, all of which I have taken in stride because that is my impression of what army.ca was created for, to allow CF members and supporters a forum to air their views and disagree while maintaining mutual respect for each other.  None of the replies to my post are what I would deem offensive so I completely disagree with JDBeach about locking this topic. 

That said I stick to my views, I have nothing against atheists or agnostics in general.  When I was doing my first degree one of my favourite archaeology lecturers was an atheist from the USA, who teased me all the time about my Catholicism and we still maintain regular contact.  However, I found the actions of that particular servicemember who generated this discussion a little aboveboard. 

Recently when H.M. Queen Elizabeth the Second visited a Muslim mosque she removed her shoes, as is Muslim tradition, and everyone knows that she is a staunch Anglican.  I have dated females whose religions ranged from Pentecostal to Seventh Day Adventist, to Jehovah's Witness, to Hindu and Muslim.  I was even once in a relationship with an American girl who was a Wickan (and just as hot as those witches in 'Charmed' ).  I've attended the worship services of some of these denominations, and while these girls all realized and had to respect the fact that I would never give up the Catholic Church, I would always respect their customs when in their places of worship.  So what is so hard in showing some respect and performing the simple and symbolic gesture of removing your hat?

 

[warrickdll]

...
Military service and religious beliefs do not have to be mutually exclusive, those who choose to make them so do so because they want (for whatever purpose) to create that strife.  Perhaps it is the externalizing of an internal conflict, or perhaps it is for the attention it brings them.
...

I couldn't agree more.

There is no legitimate reason to have a religious service within the military.

And as for those whose beliefs continue to force them to demand to have religious services in the military - well - I would like to think their complaints have a purpose, other than to cause strife (though I am doubtful).

Perhaps they are just confused, it is difficult for some to see that traditions change and yet still remain traditions. Some seem to think that military customs during their own careers were handed down on stone tablets - instead of seeing them as ever evolving (and often started on a whim, without any real military purpose).

I will however, hold off in judging them to be either mentally damaged or attention hogs though.

...
When one decides that the two are mutually exclusive, it is up to the individual to find their own higher morale path and leave one "fiath" or the other to the degree necessary to maintain the dictates of the one they choose to have priority for them.

Again, I agree. If one feels that their beliefs will not allow them to serve within a military without religious services, then it is up to the individual to choose based on their own priorities. After all, the CF will survive without them.

 

[warrickdll]

...
I have nothing against atheists or agnostics in general.
...
Recently when H.M. Queen Elizabeth the Second visited a Muslim mosque she removed her shoes, as is Muslim tradition, and everyone knows that she is a staunch Anglican.
...

I have nothing against religious people, in general, but you miss the point. What you, or the Queen, do in your own time is not at issue. Even for a member of the CF there is plenty of personal time to take care of ones own religious peculiarities.


If you are overseas, and the military situation dictates that you are required to enter a religious facility, then you must do whatever is militarily appropriate for the situation.


But in Canada, the CF controls its own actions, and there is absolutely no requirement for religious ceremonies in the military.

Nothing the military does has to have a religious component - in fact, it shouldn't. The last overt vestiges of religious content should be exorcised from the CF.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Nothing the military does has a religious component........
No, I can't agree to that one.
There is no more sacred thing than to give your life for another, there can be no greater sacrament than the offer of your own life in defence of your comrades, your colours and your country.  The reason that religion has always been close to the military, the reason Stalin ordered the Churches opened in WWII has everything to do with the honoured dead.  Our slain comrades deserve and receive from us the highest honours, and as the life is gone from the body, the honours we give are to the name of the fallen, and to their spirit, with whatever form your faith or belief holds for that.
It is not that the military needs religion to fight, it is that the context of sacrifice, grief, and dealing with loss have always had spiritual overtones.
It really shouldn't be the lone Heathen answering this one, I would expect Trinity or one of our other Chaplains to be making a more credible job of the point I am mangling.  Having said that, honouring the dead, and seeing that their sacrifice was not in vain is a really big deal in my faith, and probably in many of yours.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hey, I guess I would be one of those heathens and, darn skippy, there is a place for religion in the CF. All religions, and respect shown for each one. I will bow, kneal, sign and even smoke the sweetgrass as required to keep that respect.

I wonder how many millions have died, or would yet give thier lives, just to have what some so callouslly toss away.

For shame............................