Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[orange.paint]

I don't think you were forced to attend a religious ceremony.  You were ordered to parade at a specific location.  And I agree with the belief that we go to these events as a show of support to the deceased survivors.   If you don't belive in the religion part, fine.  But do believe that the support you demonstrated help some grieving people get over a rough time.

I agree with these memorial ceremonies they have i.e at base gyms etc.Where family members are present CO usually gives a speech etc.Everyone should be forced to attend.But does it cross the line when members are stood in the back of a religious center for the whole ceremony?

I am not religous and hate funerals

As a soldier I think it is only right you pay the proper respect to your fellow soldiers if they are deceased

Suck it up and do your duty

You keep bringing up about a Muslim going to a Christian church what if it was the other way around

Bottom line it is your duty as a soldier to pay respect to your fellows

OK what if it was the other way around?Suck it up and do your duty,give it a rest.I have,I will.As stated about 14 times now I'm asking if anyone here knew of the legality of the situation.I gave an example.It was not bitching.However somepeople cant see the trees for the forest.

Warriors, Obedience and the Rule of Law
by Colonel Kenneth Watkin
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_03/iss_4/CAJ_vol3.4_08_e.pdf

Firstly, I do not see how you can logically define the order to attend a church parade, regardless of one's personal belief, as "manifestly unlawful". 

You are being ordered to attend a ceremony in which you may have no personal stake in its religious context, therefore for you, it is not a religious ceremony at all.  You are not being ordered to believe in that particular definition of "God", nor will you be required to particpate in rites requiring specific consecration by the Church, such as taking communion.  You are simply there.

Secondly, please explain what part(s) of this explanation you are having trouble with:

Excellent Mike thats the kind of thing I was looking for.However just wondering if there was any written rules about forcing my/your subordinates to do such a thing.Outside of this?

 

[orange.paint]

You are personally attacking the character of the dead, and his wishes, by posting this thread.

You are stating that your needs, out weigh all others, and you wish to find some sort of legal way to prove it, so that you may benefit in some way.

That is the way I read it.  Pure selfish reasons, if you ask me.

dileas

tess

No its when I order trooper x to attend a religious center and he says NO.We were discussing this at work today and no one really knew of a legal issue.Some said it would infringe on the members beliefs while others disagreed.
As said 15 times now I will never refuse to attend such a service.I was merely stating a situation.

It's called being a place where students know their rights and privliages better than most of us.I want to be informed.

 

[riggermade]

Then I would charge Trooper X with disobeying a command and if he has a problem deal with it then

 

[Michael OLeary]

However just wondering if there was any written rules about forcing my/your subordinates to do such a thing.Outside of this?

To put it simply ... no.  You will not find any regulation that states it is illegal to parade troops at a religious building, or outdoor chapel, etc.  We are not talking about the Spanish Inquisition, these events do not require the recantation of one's personal beliefs to participate.

 

[orange.paint]

EXCELLENT.Thats what I was looking to hear.An answer.


Cheers

 

[armyvern]

I agree with these memorial ceremonies they have i.e at base gyms etc.Where family members are present CO usually gives a speech etc.Everyone should be forced to attend.But does it cross the line when members are stood in the back of a religious center for the whole ceremony?

No it doesn't cross the line if that is what the deceased and his/her families wishes are. It is their wishes that count here. Not yours.

OK what if it was the other way around?Suck it up and do your duty,give it a rest.I have,I will.As stated about 14 times now I'm asking if anyone here knew of the legality of the situation.I gave an example.It was not bitching.However somepeople cant see the trees for the forest.

Go ahead and read your first post again. Look carefully to see what parts of that post you have stressed to us (ie words in all caps). I'm seeing the forest too.

Excellent Mike thats the kind of thing I was looking for.However just wondering if there was any written rules about forcing my/your subordinates to do such a thing.Outside of this?

No. You were not ordered to a Church parade in any case; you were ordered to attend a funeral parade. There is nothing illegal about that. Just as there is nothing illegal with you ordering your subordinates to 'remove head-dress' on a parade when prayers are spoken. You are going to give that order aren't you?

 

[orange.paint]

For sure.The order is given in accordance with the parade layout.Its a drill movement.

Sorry if I sounded a bit curde.I have looked back and can see what you mean in a way.However it's the medium its potrayed on,wouldnt happen in human conversation as people can explain.

Thanks for the answers.

 

[the 48th regulator]

No its when I order trooper x to attend a religious center and he says NO.We were discussing this at work today and no one really knew of a legal issue.Some said it would infringe on the members beliefs while others disagreed.
As said 15 times now I will never refuse to attend such a service.I was merely stating a situation.

It's called being a place where students know their rights and privliages better than most of us.I want to be informed.

So what you are saying is, you and your chums were wondering if your selfish needs, outwieghed those of the dead, for the 16th time.  And you tried to find a legal way to approve your desires to raise heck.

Right...

dileas

tess

 

[orange.paint]

No not at all.Just wondering.

 

[tomahawk6]

I wonder why you wouldnt want to offer your respects to a comrade who has died ?
Unlike you I dont have a problem with religious ceremonies. If it were my choice I would sleep in on Sunday but my wife wont let me. She doesnt exactly tell me that I have to go, I realize that life will be less complicated if I go to church. ;D

I dont like military social functions. But I have learned to go because its important to be there and I have found that attending these functions makes for fewer problems at work and the bonds you form can enhance one's career. My wife like's parties and so by going I keep her happy. ;D

Military funerals are important because it is our way of saying farewell to a comrade.It is part of the healing process not only the next of kin but also for the deceased soldiers unit. Since 9-11 I have attended a number of funerals of fallen soldiers as a represenative of the Army. Its very hard to see the grief and heartache but it is important to demonstrate that the life of their soldier mattered, was important to the nation in a cause that was just. Attending a military funeral is an honor as well as a duty.

 

[orange.paint]

I wonder why you wouldnt want to offer your respects to a comrade who has died ?
Unlike you I dont have a problem with religious ceremonies. If it were my choice I would sleep in on Sunday but my wife wont let me. She doesnt exactly tell me that I have to go, I realize that life will be less complicated if I go to church. ;D

I don't.This was many moons ago and just an example.No one should not attend.I was asking because in the position a lot of us are finding our selves in the students can play the system very well.Just wondering if there was any legal way a member could get out of this without getting charged.Not for myself,as I tend to try to not rock the boat at work 06h00-16h30.Makes life a lot easier as you have said.

Thanks I got my answer.

Per's ordered to churchs or places of worship will attend,full stop.

cheers

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't.This was many moons ago and just an example.No one should not attend.I was asking because in the position a lot of us are finding our selves in the students can play the system very well.Just wondering if there was any legal way a member could get out of this without getting charged.Not for myself,as I tend to try to not rock the boat at work 06h00-16h30.Makes life a lot easier as you have said.

Why the hell didn't you just say that in the first place instead of your own personal song and dance to cloud the whole issue? Next time, easy question, easy answer.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Here's a question I'd like to get some help with.
In 2004 an Officer court martial ed originally for failure to obey a lawful order and remove his headdress for prayer on parade won his appeal under a Charter of Rights challenge that his right to Religious Freedom had been violated and therefore he did not have to obey the command.

http://www.cmac-cacm.ca/decisions/CMAC-476_e.shtml

After this case at Base Divisions in Esquimalt the order to remove headdress is no longer given and only those who "wish to remove their headdress" do so during the prayers on parade.

I'm just wondering how people feel about this. I think it's kind of interesting that a guy could get away with disobeying a direct order. I mean what if the Queen is on parade and the order is given "Royal Salute, present arms!" Can a person who doesn't believe in the monarchy refuse to present arms?

I haven't got any heartache with people saying they don't believe or don't pray (it is indeed their human and Charter Right to not believe or pray)...but wouldn't the old discipline factor raise it's head here....if a formed body is ordered to perform a drill movement...i.e. remove headdress....they all do it? No one was forcing him to pray or believe...it was just a preparatory stance in order to facilitate the next event in the parade.
Got my helmet on if any one cares to fire away..... :warstory:

 

[Gramps]

Here's a question I'd like to get some help with.
In 2004 an Officer court martial ed originally for failure to obey a lawful order and remove his headdress for prayer on parade won his appeal under a Charter of Rights challenge that his right to Religious Freedom had been violated and therefore he did not have to obey the command.

http://www.cmac-cacm.ca/decisions/CMAC-476_e.shtml

After this case at Base Divisions in Esquimalt the order to remove headdress is no longer given and only those who "wish to remove their headdress" do so during the prayers on parade.

I'm just wondering how people feel about this. I think it's kind of interesting that a guy could get away with disobeying a direct order. I mean what if the Queen is on parade and the order is given "Royal Salute, present arms!" Can a person who doesn't believe in the monarchy refuse to present arms?

I haven't got any heartache with people saying they don't believe or don't pray (it is indeed their human and Charter Right to not believe or pray)...but wouldn't the old discipline factor raise it's head here....if a formed body is ordered to perform a drill movement...i.e. remove headdress....they all do it? No one was forcing him to pray or believe...it was just a preparatory stance in order to facilitate the next event in the parade.
Got my helmet on if any one cares to fire away..... :warstory:

Personally I do not believe so therefore I do not pray but when on parade and the order is given to remove headdress I do so. It is the same when at a mess function or anywhere else and people bow theri heads in prayer, I bow my head and wait for them to finish. I cant see why it was such a big deal to this person and I believe he was just trying to make a point and make some waves. He turned a non-issue into something big.

Esit for typing with one hand while holding my baby in the other.

 

[Roy Harding]

Personally I do not believe so therefore I do not pray but when on parade and the order is given to remove headdress I do so. It is the same when at a mess function or antwhere else and people bow therir heads in prayer, I bow my head and wait for them to finish. I cant see why it was such a big deal to this person and I believe he was just trying to make a point and make some waves. He turned a non-issue into something big.

Absolutely - I also have no religious affiliation, but always conducted myself as outlined above by Gramps.

I do the same thing when at a friends house and grace is offered - I bow my head and wait.  By the same token, when those same friends are at MY house, grace is NOT offered, and they don't make a big deal about it.  When I am a guest in any ethnic or religious setting, I always do my best to follow the accepted customs - whether it be removing my shoes in a mosque, wearing headdress in some places, removing headdress in others, or genuflecting to the altar in others. 

It comes down, I think, to manners - which the officer referred to above was apparently lacking.  Gramps hit it dead on - this guy was looking for attention and making unnecessary waves.  Maybe he was found Not Guilty at the Court Martial, but he displayed extremely poor form, and showed a distinct lack of judgment (at least as far as can be gleaned from the quote above).


Roy

 

[xena]

And from the other side of the fence, so to speak, I have strong religious beliefs (I'm a Russian Orthodox monk now), but I know that you can't force faith down anyone's throat.  Whenever that's been done, the results have been universally disatrious - Taliban, Spanish Inquisition, Russian Pogroms, etc.

That being said, I would have to say that obeying a drill command is a completely separate issue from religious practice.  The command is to "remove headress", not "pray"!  Removing your headress when a Christian padre offers a prayer is not infringing on anyone else's religious rights, it's simply respecting those of the padre.

When a non-Christian padre (do we have any yet?  It would be fitting - I know we don't have any Orthodox Christian ones) prays, it may be against their practices to remove headress for prayer.  In such a setting, I would respectfully keep my lid on and wait.  Further to Roy's comments, it's simply politeness and common sense.

The sadness is that common sense is becoming more and more uncommon.  Soon we may have to give troops medals for thinking. 

 

[Wookilar]

My only confrontation with this issue was when 1 PPCLI consecrated new Colours a few years back. An alter was made of the drums, the Colours were laid on the alter and they were consecrated by the Padres.

Instructions were to remove headdress, not necessarily to pray, but out of respect for the Colours. I do remember some grumblings in the ranks from a (very) few nonbelievers (and one non-Christian), but once the instructions were explained, I do not recall anymore bitching about it. Most seemed to think that it was totally appropriate.

This was a few years ago, maybe about the same time as the initial offence on the coast? (Can't remember, memory not what it used to be).

As long as we approach such issues with points-of-view similar to Roy's (and others) thinking, and use RESPECT as our benchmark, there should be no problems.

 

[Pte_Martin]

The sadness is that common sense is becoming more and more uncommon.  Soon we may have to give troops medals for thinking. 

i want one  ;D

 

[Gramps]

It comes down, I think, to manners

I could not agree more. I have noticed a serious lack of manners lately in many forms. In restaurants with people holding their cutlery like cave men trying to kill something, eating with their mouths open and talking with their mouths full. Manners were drilled into me when I was young and at the time I thought it was meaningless. Now I see people being rude and disrespectful in public and it makes me cringe. The removal of ones headdress ranks right up there beside the poor manners I mentioned above.

 

[kratz]

When a non-Christian padre (do we have any yet?

At the end of 2006, the Chaplin branch MSM news when the first Muslim chaplain was appointed. The item noted there is not a Jewish chaplin yet, but there could be one soon.