Release Item 5F - Questions Release or Reenrollment (Merged)

[sgt_stewart]

Does anyone know how long it takes to get a 5F reversed? I am inthe the process of reapplying and I was mistakenly released 5F and my old unit confirmed that it truly was a mistake. I am getting 2 stories from CFRC. The first one is that only the CDS can do so and it is a long and complex process. The other one is that because I am applying to the reserves that it happens very quickly, usually at the brigade level. Is there anyone out there who has the same experience?

 

[CountDC]

hmmm good question.  I don't know the answer but I think the reason for the 2 answers you did get is because they are actually the answers to different questions:

Who can reverse an incorrect release item -  that is most likely the CDS answer you were given although I do not believe it would actually need him.  I am sure that it would have been delegated downward.

who can approve the enrolment of a prior 5f release - that would be the brigade answer you were given and is answered here:

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-11_e.asp

APPROVING AUTHORITY
6. The authority to enrol applicants with former CF service who continue to meet the enrolment standards in Appendix 1 is:

Canadian Forces Recruiting Education and Training System/Senior Officer Recruiting (CFRETS/SO Recruit), for applicants whose item of release is 3(b), 5(d), 5(e) or 5(f), except that the authority to enrol may be exercised by the appropriate commander of a command or area commander for applicants who were released within the past three years as non-effective strength (NES) under item 5(d), or under item 5(f) where they failed to return military equipment but subsequently returned it, and whose documents are retained at command or area headquarters.

So it is possible you could be approved and back in long before you would get the release item corrected.

 

[JMesh]

who can approve the enrolment of a prior 5f release - that would be the brigade answer you were given and is answered here:

Actually, DAOD 5002-1 was amended effective 01 Jan 2011, and that is no longer the case. Relevant sections of the DAOD:

In accordance with QR&O paragraphs 6.01(2) and (4), unless special authority is personally obtained from the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS), an applicant with former service shall not be enrolled if released:

as medically unfit;
for inefficiency;
with a conduct assessment below “good” or equivalent, other than a conduct assessment below “good” or equivalent that was based upon conviction for which a pardon has been granted under the Criminal Records Act; or
for misconduct.

For applicants with former CF service, the above includes any release from the CF under Item 1 (misconduct), 2 (unsatisfactory service), 3(a) (medically unfit for further service), 5(d) (not advantageously employable) or 5(f) (unsuitable for further service) of the Table to QR&O article 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Member. For applicants with former service in any other military force or the RCMP, the above includes any reason analogous to one of these Items.

Note – All previous CDS orders, instructions and authorizations that provided authority for officers subordinate to the CDS to authorize the enrolment of applicants with former service have been revoked.

 

[sgt_stewart]

Straight from the horses mouth.

The reversal of, or waiver for a 5F, MUST, be signed off by the CDS. It could be done in the past by a lower authority, i.e. Brigade Level. No longer. The MCC who is handling my file, said it could be several months, or as he called it, at glacial speed.

I am now reminded of the true meaning of hurry up and wait.

For those gunners out there this is truly a "prepare to move" moment.

 

[Former_Engineer]

Afternoon gents,

    I trained in a reserve Engineer unit for a couple years before running into some extreme personal, domestic issues (nothing law related) causing me to move to a small town an hr and a half away from my unit with no vehicle. I was unable to start or attend the training year. My big mistake was inadequate communication with my CoC coupled with assuming i would be givin the option to sign for a voluntary release form or something of the like. To put in perspective of the issues i was going through, the whole army release thing was the LEAST of my worries and priorities. A year and a bit later when a few of the major issues was resolved i was back to working in my home city, back on my feet so to speak. By this time it was realized it was too little too late and their intent to release was probably done and over with. I have never once received any mail or notification to this day. its been about 3 training years. The problem is i am perusing a policing career and i am confident i am a reasonable candidate except for this administrative obstacle. I assume i have been 5 (f)..... but i cant find anywhere if this is considered a "Dishonorable" discharge.....seeing how i have never committed any crime or any crazy misconduct to get the boot, just simply an absenteeism from my reserve unit. and if i am 5 (f) will that affect municipal. police employment

  Avoiding any nonconstructive criticism and also avoiding contacting my unit directly (probably bad blood and i really dont feel like being dicked around and such), are there any other channels i can resolve this through? and if i am 5 (f) is there a reversal process (even all this time) on paper so it wont affect my policing career? thanks all. Much appreciate your time.

 

[brihard]

If you have yet to receive any paperwork it's entirely possible you slipped through the cracks. Some units are shoddy about NES.

If you believe you are an appropriate candidate to be a police officer, it behoves you to make contact with your unit as quickly as possible, and to take responsibility for the situation. You may well find that you have been 5Fed, which will likely prove very detrimental to a policing career. Alternatively, you may find that you're a forgotten name somewhere, and that your reestablishing contact prompts and 'oh yeah', at which point they'll be happy to commence a 4C voluntary release.

I think it's quite possible that if you've never received any correspondence at all, you may still be on the books. Your proper course of action is to contact them.

 

[Former_Engineer]

Ok...... if i do find im 5 (f) can i somehow appeal and get it changed to a honorable voluntary so it wont screw my career over?

 

[brihard]

You could try. I see no real grounds on which to substantiate an appeal. You'd probably be rightly told that you made your own bed and get to lie in it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

  Avoiding any nonconstructive criticism and also avoiding contacting my unit directly (probably bad blood and i really dont feel like being dicked around and such),

You want to be a cop.....

You should cowboy up and go to your unit and figure out whats going on and not hide- hiding is what got you here in the first place. Sometimes 5f releases take a while to take effect but once their started good luck stopping it. No way you can be a cop with a 5F.

just simply an absenteeism from my reserve unit.

IMO not a good approach for someone who wants to be a cop.

 

[Former_Engineer]

i hear you, but "hiding" is NOT what got me here, other personal issues that needed to be dealt with and not being able to actually be at my unit got me here, i will admit i did not take care of it on a timely fashion, calling my unit is something im going to have to do, but if i recall i would have to do that on the next parade night (in 2 days).

"just simply an absenteeism from my reserve unit." i said that to compare what i did (or didnt do) and what the stigma of a dishonorable discharge is (some kind of major misconduct)

"no way you can be a cop with 5F" if thats true, thats what im on this site for, to see if i can do something about that, weather its reversing the 5F or anything. yeah i shit the bed, i made mistakes, but i dont think this should affect someones entire career when a man grows up and finally pulls his head from his ass. there has got to be a way. thank you.

 

[PuckChaser]

"no way you can be a cop with 5F" if thats true, thats what im on this site for, to see if i can do something about that, weather its reversing the 5F or anything. yeah i crap the bed, i made mistakes, but i dont think this should affect someones entire career when a man grows up and finally pulls his head from his ***. there has got to be a way. thank you.

It can and will effect your entire career unless you can get it reversed. You made a commitment to your unit, the CF and your country and for whatever reason you didn't show up. For 3 years. You cannot tell me you didn't think about the reserves for 3 whole years, but I'm not gonna get into personal situations on an open forum. If you're lucky, the paperwork wasn't processed and you fell through the cracks. If you're not lucky, you're a 5(F) and its gonna be hard justifying a change to that. A 5(F) is going to demonstrate to any potential employer that you are not trustworthy. Good luck explaining that away.

 

[Former_Engineer]

fair enough....

 

[Jarnhamar]

i hear you, but "hiding" is NOT what got me here, other personal issues that needed to be dealt with and not being able to actually be at my unit got me here, i will admit i did not take care of it on a timely fashion,
//
"no way you can be a cop with 5F" if thats true, thats what im on this site for, to see if i can do something about that, weather its reversing the 5F or anything. yeah i shit the bed, i made mistakes, but i dont think this should affect someones entire career when a man grows up and finally pulls his head from his ass. there has got to be a way. thank you.

I've dealt with a LOT of soldiers who found their way on to the 5F list. I have a soft spot for them because sometimes it's the CFs fault and that's not fair to the soldiers.
I managed to help some, others just didn't give a shit. I've had arguments with kids parents telling their they're idiots if they don't drag their son or daughter in to the reserves in order to clear them out properly.I brought my units 5F list from like 30 down to 6, the rest got released other ways.

LOTS of people have this conception that they can treat it like mcDicks and just not show up for a bunch of shifts and they will eventually stop calling.
What you need to understand is that the reserves deal with a LOT of these people and everyone has a sob story on why they stopped showing up to work. Why they didn't return their kit. Why they landed on a 5F discharge. Most times it's someone else's fault etc..

Honestly dude the army as a whole generally doesn't care much.  For the amount of time and effort they put into trusting you again they can probably accept 4 new candidates.

How many people do you think "realized their mistake" to join the army only to quit again? That happens a lot too.  I'll give you an example. I had a girl who was put on the 5F list. She put in a memo to transfer, the memo got lost and she sat at home for 2 years waiting for a call.  She didn't make any effort to call ANYONE, just waited.  I intercepted the 5F paperwork and busted my ass trying to help her out.  With the help of an officer through this very forum, after close to a year of work I managed to help get this girl transferred to the unit she waited 2+ years to join.  There was a lot of work, a lot of emails back and forth, 100KM trips to turn in gear and sign paperwork.

She was there 2 months, went on 1 exercise then decided to quit the CF because she didn't like it...

I'm not saying don't try, I'm just saying the system isn't on your side.  I don't mean to single you out but other people can read your story and maybe learn from it.

 

[Former_Engineer]

    Yeah that totally makes sense. the fact that the girl did that was S*hitty of her, difference is im pursuing a civi policing career not trying to re join. and this technicality of a 5F not a 4C on paper may make it easy for an employer (city police) to negatively judge my character.  an MP buddy of mine sent me this this morning after telling him my situation, let me know your thoughts sir:

  "Not a big deal man, a 5 f release is not a dishonorable discharge and does not fall into a misconduct. I believe you can appeal it thru a redress, but I honestly don't think you need to. It would be very unlikely that any municipal police service would even see how you were released. I would simply tell them that you were living too far away and could no longer be employed by DND."

 

[Jarnhamar]

Your MP friend needs to check his facts because he's giving you very shitty information . A 5F is being kicked out of the military. You can't get a government job, among a host of other disadvantages for you.  It does show up on your name and the police aren't going to hire someone that's kicked out of the military.
You get caught trying to pass it off how your friend suggested and the police will see right through it and you won;t get hired. Also consider many police officers are ex military and know very well what a 5F is.

Considering you were kicked out of the CF I'm not even sure if you can redress it.  Here's what you can do.  Get a haircut, put on some nice clothes, walk into your unit and go to the clerks, try for the chief clerk.
1. Find out exactly how you were released. If you fell through the cracks or if it was a 5F.

If you fell through the cracks then start the official release process.
If you were 5F'd then  ssk if you can speak to the unit's adj and set up a meeting with him.  If you get your meeting explain the situation and ask him or her if they could help you change your 5F to something else.

Don't take any more advice from your friend.

 

[brihard]

I would meticulously heed every word ObedientiaZelum says. IHe most certainly knows what he's talking about.

 

[JesseWZ]

If your MP friend is telling you to lie in order to apply to a police service...

1) He doesn't sound like a very good MP

2) Lying in order to gain entry into a profession that by it's very nature requires trust and honesty? I hope you weren't thinking of following his advice...

 

[Aerobicrunner]

Under the CDS Delegated Release Authorities - Reserve Force Table, 5F release is for the following:

Unsuitable for Further Service (general, NES)
Unsuitable for Further Service (drugs, alcohol, sexual misconduct, conduct, harassment, racist conduct, family violence and abuse)
Untrained Personnel

The MPRR and other records will only show 5F which anyone could make an assumption it was for any one of the items above.

The right to grieve is only available to serving members.  If you put in your grievance prior to release it can be actioned.  Once you are released there is no right to grieve.

 

[Scott]

I am experiencing serious deja vu...

To the OP: please take OZ's advice. It's hard fought for and well earned, also well intentioned. Please stop any attempts to try and think your way around this or nitpick answers apart in an attempt to make things seem better or to get the answer you want.

Cold hard facts.

 

[aesop081]

and this technicality of a 5F not a 4C

It is not a "technicality".