Reconstitution

[kev994]

Then we should fire the Officers and SNCOs who are the worst leaders, and have the highest turnover rates, because they are driving away all the good people

That I could get behind, there’s probably an easy way to track that.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That I could get behind, there’s probably an easy way to track that.

When you build up a unit to almost full strength, then a new CO and RSM arrive, and then 6 months later you're back to platoons of 12, it's not hard to guess the reason

 

[TacticalTea]

.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Perhaps why they sign up but what we actually need is for people to stay in and train the new zealots. A bunch of new recruits are not very useful on their own.

Actually, in my opinion, you we need both:

a. a steady supply of young zealots, most of whom do not want to make careers in the military but from which we draw;​

b. a smaller cadre of leaders and technical specialists.​

I'll leave it others to tell us how we might get both.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The obvious being restated in the Natty Post....

Jesse Kline: Armed Forces admit there's no one left to use its rusted out gear

 

[Fabius]

If our salaries are insufficient at the various ranks what would be?

A significant percentage of those serving think we aren’t paid enough. Fair enough but I want to know what is enough from Pte on up as that never seems to get discussed other than in terms like “living wage” that don’t account for lifestyle,age,experience,training,education etc.

So what dollar value will entice recruitment and retention?

Ie. a Pte needs to make $80,000 ( random number) What does a Sgt make then? $120,000? How about a Capt then?

 

[TacticalTea]

The bolded part is the only part I take issue with, otherwise I agree.

A Capt/Lt(N) will make double what you quoted by the time SDA/LDA and PLD are factored in. Would you think being paid as a base non-Spec S1 is a nicety? They make $64K annually...

I get that about $60K is what the average Canadian makes, and if the CAF only wanted average Canadians that put in average time/work that might make sense as a baseline. The CAF expects far more, while treating people poorly, and leadership people make comments like the above.

Correct your aim; we were talking about early career.
This is the context in which I was making my comment:

I don't know that pay increases do much for new entries. New equipment and a clear mission statement would probably go further with getting people in the front door and keeping a hold of them for a couple of years. Quality of life and pay increases will dictate if they want to stick around and turn it into a career.

My reply.

I'm late to the party but I agree. Pay is pay. For most, not much more than a nicety after 60k per person.

What matters more is support, purpose, having the tools for the job, and not being screwed with. Sitting for a year in accommodations that are falling apart while awaiting training [aka, not people at OFP] on equipment that has been obsolete for decades and being told you're evil because of the way you were born does much more damage to ''rec'n'ret'' than pay that hasn't kept up with exceptionally high inflation.

Why? Because pay hasn't risen elsewhere either. But the other factors might have.

It's a matter of understanding how to attract and retain people at different stages of their lives and careers. What seems great for a 20 year old Zoomer recruit may not be interesting at all to a 35 year old SNCO.

The problem with focusing on pay hikes is that... everyone wants it. Military, sure, but... service industry, healthcare sector, in education, etc. Yet there's only so much money to go around. Better to target specific areas for improvement that may be more qualitative in nature. The money may be better spent that way.

As for the trained folks, of course spec pay must be continuously assessed, but think of one of the worst hit trades in the Navy: MarTechs. Did they all leave because they are oh so valuable to the private sector? Or because the organization completely and utterly shafted them?

 

[Navy_Pete]

As for the trained folks, of course spec pay must be continuously assessed, but think of one of the worst hit trades in the Navy: MarTechs. Did they all leave because they are oh so valuable to the private sector? Or because the organization completely and utterly shafted them?

Yes.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If our salaries are insufficient at the various ranks what would be?

A significant percentage of those serving think we aren’t paid enough. Fair enough but I want to know what is enough from Pte on up as that never seems to get discussed other than in terms like “living wage” that don’t account for lifestyle,age,experience,training,education etc.

So what dollar value will entice recruitment and retention?

Ie. a Pte needs to make $80,000 ( random number) What does a Sgt make then? $120,000? How about a Capt then?

This is honestly less about what we get paid and more about where the money goes.

The CAF pays a reasonable wage. I will agree to that. The issue is that there is no mechanism i which that wage correlates to a reasonable quality of life across the force.

We called it posting roulette last APS on who would be living the high life in a low CoL posting or in an area where the PLD is inflated/present versus areas that have been boned by exponential growth in CoL while PLD rates stayed as they were for 2009 forever.

Couple that with the fact promotion rates stall within the NCM ranks, but those 4 incentives hold you in place until you're able to climb up the ladder, yep. We aren't "paid well enough;" not in dollar amount, but how we pay it out and how much the member has after the Cost of Living is a huge factor in wage disparity within the CAF.

We need to see the Pay Incentive Levels expand in NCM trades that are slow to promote. We also need to ensure the standard of living for troops is even across the board, not based on geography. There is no reason Cpl Bloggins in Kingston should be supplementing with Food Bank provisions while Cpl Smith in Edmonton is enjoying having their PLD cover half their mortgage. Conversely, it's extremely hollow hearing a "maybe next year.." from Capt McFuckFace who has 3 incentives ahead of them, even if they're not going to pick up Maj.

If you want to see people join, change the way we do business. In all facets. Otherwise you're going to have the same problems with the same solutions.

 

[TacticalTea]

This is honestly less about what we get paid and more about where the money goes.

The CAF pays a reasonable wage. I will agree to that. The issue is that there is no mechanism i which that wage correlates to a reasonable quality of life across the force.

We called it posting roulette last APS on who would be living the high life in a low CoL posting or in an area where the PLD is inflated/present versus areas that have been boned by exponential growth in CoL while PLD rates stayed as they were for 2009 forever.

Couple that with the fact promotion rates stall within the NCM ranks, but those 4 incentives hold you in place until you're able to climb up the ladder, yep. We aren't "paid well enough;" not in dollar amount, but how we pay it out and how much the member has after the Cost of Living is a huge factor in wage disparity within the CAF.

We need to see the Pay Incentive Levels expand in NCM trades that are slow to promote. We also need to ensure the standard of living for troops is even across the board, not based on geography. There is no reason Cpl Bloggins in Kingston should be supplementing with Food Bank provisions while Cpl Smith in Edmonton is enjoying having their PLD cover half their mortgage. Conversely, it's extremely hollow hearing a "maybe next year.." from Capt McFuckFace who has 3 incentives ahead of them, even if they're not going to pick up Maj.

If you want to see people join, change the way we do business. In all facets. Otherwise you're going to have the same problems with the same solutions.

Totally agree that PLD is not properly managed as it is.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

For those who are interested, the Retention strategy is now on the DND website….

 

[Kirkhill]

We need to see the Pay Incentive Levels expand in NCM trades that are slow to promote. We also need to ensure the standard of living for troops is even across the board, not based on geography. There is no reason Cpl Bloggins in Kingston should be supplementing with Food Bank provisions while Cpl Smith in Edmonton is enjoying having their PLD cover half their mortgage. Conversely, it's extremely hollow hearing a "maybe next year.." from Capt McFuckFace who has 3 incentives ahead of them, even if they're not going to pick up Maj.

One way to ensure everybody in the forces enjoys the same standard of living at the same cost would be to create gated communities. Some might call them bases.

 

[Furniture]

For those who are interested, the Retention strategy is now on the DND website….

That was a few minutes I'll never get back... I should have read it at work, then at least I would have wasted the CAF's time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That was a few minutes I'll never get back... I should have read it at work, then at least I would have wasted the CAF's time.

Let me guess: ‘Train to excite‘ was in there somewhere

 

[dapaterson]

That was a few minutes I'll never get back... I should have read it at work, then at least I would have wasted the CAF's time.

All your base are belong to us.


Sorry, all your time belongs to the CAF.

 

[Quirky]

Couple that with the fact promotion rates stall within the NCM ranks, but those 4 incentives hold you in place until you're able to climb up the ladder, yep. We aren't "paid well enough;" not in dollar amount, but how we pay it out and how much the member has after the Cost of Living is a huge factor in wage disparity within the CAF.

Cut provincial income tax and make PMQ rent the same everywhere. Add some sort of PLD that’s evaluated every year and call it good. Have the base commander approve or deny the recommendation to raise or lower based on yearly evaluations.

 

[dapaterson]

Base commanders lack the knowledge and training to make that kind of assessment.

 

[markppcli]

That was a few minutes I'll never get back... I should have read it at work, then at least I would have wasted the CAF's time.

I just want an explanation of how I’m supposed to pitch a second or third contract with the army to someone when they can get a job paying them 1.5 x what they were getting, know their schedule for a year in advance, and do what they get trained to down the road at the remand centre. There’s a reason it’s called 5 PPCLI (no it’s not the guests). We loose 2-5 MCpls a year to that place because they start them at the top pay bracket for having leadership training.

And for anyone saying they can hire a PHD for 60 k I’d love to know what industry. Everyone I know with a masters is making well over 100k.

 

[markppcli]

If our salaries are insufficient at the various ranks what would be?

A significant percentage of those serving think we aren’t paid enough. Fair enough but I want to know what is enough from Pte on up as that never seems to get discussed other than in terms like “living wage” that don’t account for lifestyle,age,experience,training,education etc.

So what dollar value will entice recruitment and retention?

Ie. a Pte needs to make $80,000 ( random number) What does a Sgt make then? $120,000? How about a Capt then?

I don’t think Captains make too much money, but perhaps we shouldn’t start the count down to that automatic promotion until after OFP? So we aren’t paying some one doing an entry level apprentice job like Pl Comd the pay rate of a seasoned staff officer ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

And for anyone saying they can hire a PHD for 60 k I’d love to know what industry. Everyone I know with a masters is making well over 100k.

That's because a MBA is more useful than a PhD