Quitting the Forces

[pipesnake]

I left because of the bull-shit. My goal was to go to the CAR. I was promised my jump course several times if I only did this that and the other thing. I did them all but there was always some excuse. I watched in fury as the FNG's got sent. I thought I was capable too having proved myself on the NECIC team and in various other ways. When it was time to re-enlist what do you think they promised me? JUMP COURSE just sign here! Ya right, give me some of that swamp land too. I looked forward to 17 more years of getting my chain yanked while I was getting paid shit and shot at. No thanks.

My NCO's kept telling me that I wouldn't make it in the real world and that I would be back. Maybe they thought that about themselves but leaving didn't scare me, just like joining didn't or anything in between. After college was done and I had been working for bit I thought about coming back as an officer but I had a new family then and couldn't afford the pay cut.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I don't know about you guys.......but i want to get out bad. This military isn't a military. I know I'm making everyone mad by saying this, but it is a glorified welfare. I'm leaving to join the US Marines and i have never been happier with my life. I want occupational experience and i can not get it in this military. all this military promotes is Drinking and having a good time. I joined to be a soldier and its to bad i have to change my citizenship to do it.

Don't feel bad.  I did 11 years in the CF and then I joined the Marine Corps.  It's the best thing I ever did.  I don't regret a single day I served in the Army but it was really the death of a thousand cuts.  I got tired of being forced into becoming a civil servant dressed in green.  I lost a lot of friends who did not agree with my decision to leave Canada for what I consider to be a greener pasture.

Marine Corps training is outstanding, The sense of belonging is unparalelled and we are funded a let better than the CF.  However, there is no Regimental Mess system and I miss that.  You'll have a great time.

Semper Fi

PJ D-Dog

 

[Meridian]

Curious.... Why are all these people joining the USMC...  Are you aligned with the values that the US present? Or do you just wanna drive cool gucci gear and be part  of a world-renowned force that gets deployed all the time?

Im not criticizing, but seriously asking... One of the reasons I originally joined the forces was patriotism and supporting Canadian Values.. which in my opinion can differ significantly from the US, at least ineans if not end...  My only justification for going US forces in my mind is the professionalism and funding....  but is that really a good enough reason?

Is the military just a career like any other?

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

Yet, the army seems to think that I want to be an unpaid troop, I get paid sometimes, usually not in the right ammount, never by direct deposit etc etc. Same old story for reservists.

Well that's not right, and shouldn't be the usual for reservists. I know whenever I don't get paid the correct amount, I'm right in the orderly room pestering the clerks until they get it sorted out. Or use your chain of command to sort it out for you.

You should ALWAYS be getting paid, in FULL. The reserves is a job like any other. If you're not getting paid, something's very wrong.

 

[Harris]

I agree with Sig Bloggins, if your not getting paid properly and on time get the chain of command involved.  That is totally unacceptable.

 

[Kat Stevens]

This may kick over a giant anthill here, but, onward.  To my way of thinking, if your loyalty can be purchased with the promise of cool kit and a bottomless barrell of cash, well, there's a word for that.... it's "mercenary"...  Just MHO

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually,I agree with you, that is exactlly what it would be. Much as I am a supporter of our southern nieghbor, there would be no "blood ties" like I have to this great land and I would just be "selling" myself.[and of course, this goes for other countries as well]

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

This may kick over a giant anthill here, but, onward.   To my way of thinking, if your loyalty can be purchased with the promise of cool kit and a bottomless barrell of cash, well, there's a word for that.... it's "mercenary"...   Just MHO

CHIMO,   Kat

     Agreed in principle, but there have been many occasions when Canadians and Americans have crossed the line to join each others services to fight the wars they feel their own country should be, but isn't.   I have friends who fought with the US in Vietnam, Canadian volunteers in a war that the US citizens themselves were deeply divided on.   My Grandfather likewise served with many fine Americans who joined the Canadian Army to fight the war against the Nazi's that their own leaders had decided to sit out (prior to the end of '41 when they got their last pre 9-11 wakeup call).   A person who doesn't care who they fight for is a mercenary.   A person who for love of his country, decides to defend it by standing with its allies, even when his own govornment will not, may be a patriot too.   Canadians who fought the Falangists and their German backers in the Spanish Civil war passed their experiences of German weapons and tactics on to our troops when we were facing the same foe in France.   Canadians who had served in Vietnam offered their experience for our troops training for a new generation of low intensity conflict.   Experience in wartime is a valuable asset for any armed forces.   If some Canadians gain that experience serving with the UK or US, and then chose to serve the CF to pass it along, it strengthens us.  

 

[patrick666]

"Cannon fodder" is a good term for them.

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Well said. I'll be doing my time in the CF Regs soon. Guess I'll see what to do after that contract is up, be it stay..or move on.

 

[Kat Stevens]

    Experience in wartime is a valuable asset for any armed forces.  If some Canadians gain that experience serving with the UK or US, and then chose to serve the CF to pass it along, it strengthens us.

Valid point. However, the tone here seems to be along the lines of "Canadian army sucks, I'm gonna join the Rangers/Marines/Delta etc... coz they get lots of neat stuff".  That smacks of personal gain, therefore, by definition, mercenary.  Again, IMHO

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Can you blame people for growing tired of being jerked around, when there are places where you can get what you want? I know a Sgt. who got his Para course after 12 years of waiting, I sure in hell dont plan to be waiting 12 years for it.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think you're missing my point.  To sell your loyalty to another country for personal gain, is a mercenary act.  In this context (another anthill),  the French Foreign Legion are exactly that: a mercenary force.  That was my ONLY point...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

I dont really think they're selling themselves. If that would be the case, my offering of my able body to the Canadian Military is just as much an act of "selling myself". Whether I live here or not, that Canadian Citienship paper means nothing to me. Its what I bellieve in my heart that makes me a Canadian, and if I felt serving the US was doing my part, I wouldnt have a problem with it. You're definition of Mercenary is clearly different than mine. If they're in it for the money, than yes its Mercenary acts. But I dont think thats why people are leaving the CF for the USMC

 

[Kat Stevens]

I don't really think they're selling themselves. If that would be the case, my offering of my able body to the Canadian Military is just as much an act of "selling myself". Whether I live here or not, that Canadian Citizenship paper means nothing to me. Its what I believe in my heart that makes me a Canadian.

Well, that piece of paper means a heck of a lot to me.  I have dual citizenship, UK and Canada.  Canada has been my home since I was 12 years old.  When the time came to serve, there was no question.  My family are 4 generations of Guardsmen back in Britain, and they have loads of cool kit and exotic travel destinations.  That was never a consideration;  I live in Canada, I serve Canada...

CHIMO,  Kat

PS  I have taken this thread badly off course, apologies, Kat

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I would like to address some the comments/concerns that some of you have expressed about Canadian soldiers defecting south of the border to join the US Marines.

I would not call them mercenaries or disloyal.  In my case, it had to do with what the CF was becoming and how soldiers were being treated.  I am very proud to have served in the CF and I have no regrets of ever having served.  I tell my friends of the good time I had in the CF all the time.  My decision to leave was based on the fact that I could no longer morally support what was taking place in the Army.

I joined the militia in 1989 when I was a college student.  After I finished college, I basically became a permanent reservist due to not being able to get a good paying full-time job.  I was making more in the reserves working part-time (three weeks a month in the fall, winter and spring) and full-time in the summer than what I could make on civi street.  Later, I went to a Class B-A contract.

For a long time I believed in what I was doing.  I ate, slept and drank the stuff.  I couldn't get enough of the artillery and the military.  As time progressed, I discovered that the system was broken and that our soldiers were not being looked after.  Young gunners were not getting paid and there didn't seem to be anything we could do to fix it.  We lost a lot of good soldiers because the IRRPS system didn't work.  Only after RPSR came in that we were finally able to retain them by paying them on time.

The training was lacking and budgets were tight.  Going to the field with only 50 rounds of 105 ammo for the whole exercise was ridiculous. Gunners became disinterested because it was not as challenging as they would have hoped.  Equipment failed constantly and the gear was old and tired.  I remember how our entire fleet of vehicles was grounded (on more than three occasions) because there was no money in the budget for the mechanics from Gagetown to come and repair them.

We were seriously undermanned and I did five jobs and worked 16 hour days.  Although I wanted to continue serving in the military, I really didn't know how make things better.  I applied to transfer to the Regular Force.  At that time, I was a Sgt and had eight years under my belt.  I also had every artillery QL4 going and was teaching the Basic Arty Tech course to both regular and reserve soldiers.  The recruiting center offered me recruit school by pass, battle school by pass and my arty driver wheel at the rank of private.  I was not ready to give up most of my qualifications in exchange for being a basic gun bunny.  If I could train the regular force, why couldn't I retain that course?  There was no answer and no one really cared.

In 1999, I was working in Gagetown with the G-3 branch.  I traveled extensively throughout Canada and the US.  On one trip to Ottawa, I had garbage thrown at me by a passerby and as he asked â Å“who you gonna kill today soldier boyâ ?.  Being in uniform, while walking to work, I just ignored the incident for fear of offending someone or creating a negative image for the CF.  I also had someone spit at me in Ottawa.

A month later, I traveled to the US and did some work at the Canadian Embassy.  As I walked to my hotel, I was stopped by six people who thanked me for serving.  When I mentioned I was Canadian, they all had the same comment â Å“Canada has an army?â ?.  They all told me that it didn't matter as it took guts to serve in any military that was a friend of the US.

At one point in 1999, I was having a problem exchanging my combat boots at base supply.  They had run out of my size (eight and a half) and didn't expect any in for some time.  I was simply told to return every day to check and see if there was a shipment.  I literally had no thread left on my boots and had been trying to get new pairs for months.  I ended up in the field with the Chief Warrant Officer's course form Ottawa and met with the CWO of the CF.  I asked him about the problem with uniform acquisitions and the how I couldn't exchange my boots due to lack of a common size.  His response contained, in part, something about the federal budget, the Chief of Defense Staff's name, and a speech made by Queen Elizabeth in 1953 when she visited the Van Doos.  I never got an answer to my question.

As a reservist in Gagetown on Class B-A working for the G3, I was paid 85 per cent of the regular force wage with no pension benefits.  I was, however, held to the same regular force standard, with the same level of responsibility and accountability and treated like garbage by regular force soldiers (once they discovered I was in the militia).

On one trip to the US, I met up with some Marines and they showed me around their base and I was shocked to discover there was a military place in the world that adhered to the same principles as I did.

Before leaving the CF, I did a lot of soul searching and research.  I read everything I could find about the Marines.  I discovered that the Marine Corps institutionalized the values of honor, courage and commitment, by which I lived my life.  At that point, I knew where I needed to be.  The CF had fallen below the mark and after my encounter with the CWO of the CF, I no longer had any faith in our leadership.  The leadership failings of the CF are too numerous to recount.  Everything form the Airborne Regiment public hearings on CBC to the shredding of medical documents detailing soldiers' exposure to bauxite while on OP Harmony in Croatia in 1993-94.  The one that took the cake was the soldier who got a sex change operation paid for the CF because he was suffering from gender dysphoria and became a woman....and all of it aired on a CBC documentary.  Yet the CF couldn't pay for laser eye correction for soldiers who had to go around wearing coke bottles for glasses.

I am very much attached to Canada, although I am now a naturalized US citizen.  I hold dual citizenship.  I lived in Canada for 30 years and that will always be with me forever.  My parents are Canadian as is my wife.  I still speak French at home with my wife (we never speak English to each other) and I still keep track of some Canadian news.  It's not something that washes away in the shower.  I am not a mercenary because I don't get paid enough as a Marine to qualify as one.  My loyalty cannot be purchased.  The Marines never gave me money to join.  I have no intentions of ever joining any other branch of service again in any country.  My loyalty lies to my fellow Marines, to my Corps, to the US and to my Canadian lineage, heritage, language and culture.  I truly believe that helping to keep America safe helps to keep Canada safe as well.  That might be a big pill to swallow but I think it's true.

Sorry for the long tirade but I just wanted to make a point.

Regards,

PJ D-Dog

 

[dutchie]

I wouldn't call joining the US Army or the UK Army disloyal, a defection, or anything of the like. Those armies deploy..a lot. I have friends who have joined either the Brits or the US forces, and there reasons went something like: "I want to go to an army that will actually send me as the leading element, not playing a supporting role." One guy wanted Iraq, not an endless rotation to Bosnia (left pre-9/11). One guy went US Army, and another the Highlanders. Both are doing great. Last I heard, the Brit was heading to Iraq, and the American was going to US Special Forces. Sounds like they got what they wanted.

The US and to a lesser extent Britain are the premier choices for those that want to go to war. Their operational tempo is high, and their Governments don;t 'dither' when deciding whether or not to go.

 

[ZipperHead]

Excellent post PJ D-dog!!

While I agree somewhat with Kat on the mercenary idea (too many people have sold themselves out, emotionally, financially and physically by going to another country for employment .... I despise young kids, who once they get their degree, run off to the high paying jobs in the States, without a thought to the fact that Canada paid for all their public schooling, and subsidized their secondary education (more than likely). On the subject of joining another country's military, however, I feel that as long as you are still serving in one of Canada's allies (NATO, or a Commonwealth country) you are still serving in the basic interests of what we hold dear: freedom for all.

In 1991, I came relatively close to jumping ship to join the USMC. I was disgusted with how our government decided to sit out ground combat in Gulf War 1. I was travelling through the US (I drove from New Brunswick to BC, and took a side trip to visit an ex-girlfriend who I met through cadets (she was in JROTC at the time, and I met her at Vernon cadet camp, and she was on leave from the Corps (she was a helicopter mechanic)). Anyway, I popped in the USMC recruiting center in Everett, Wahington and asked how I'd be able to join up, gain citizenship, if any of my courses were of use, etc, etc. The recruiter was actually quite shocked that I would want to quit our military, and join theirs. He wasn't experienced in dealing with Canadians, as most Canucks from BC travelled just across the border to Bellingham, and signed up there. That wasn't on my route out to New Brunswick, so I decided to drive east and find a recruiting center in another state to try to give me some info. Short story long, I never did apply, so I don't know where I'd be right now, but I wonder sometimes.

I think dissatisfaction with our military and government have probably pushed a lot of good soldiers south, but it worries me (with this current Administration) if dying for the US is what they had in mind. I know that Canadians can be indifferent or sometimes hostile to our soldiers (a sidetrack: my buddy, who makes Vin Diesel look small, was on leave back in the late 80's to Vancouver Island, and was travelling in DEU's (old tan ones). Anyway, he was on a ferry, and an old woman (about 60) asked him if he was in the military: "Yes ma'am!!!" he replied. She spit right in his face. Mind you, where we are from (my buddy and I) she was probably a draft dodger's wife, so she was probably of that era who hated the military.), but after seeing the outpouring of emotion after the friendly fire bombing in A'stan in '02 (which, if you are cynical, which I am, could have been more anger at the US than sympathy for our soldiers who were killed), it sometimes takes something tragic to wake people up. Witness the killing of the 4 RCMP.....

We all have to die sometime, and we can't pick and choose our wars to fight (well, I guess some people do, but those are true mercenaries, I guess), and I don't know how many wars have ever truly been "just" (if you peel back the propoganda, even on the "popular" wars, it usually boils down to money, power and a country's interests (usually resources)). An example of this, looking at the US as an example, is how long it took for them to enter the Balkans (better than 4 years), WWII (2 years), WWI (3 years), zero interest in Rwanda, Sudan, Ethiopia, etc. I don't mean for this to be a critique of the US, but I would rather die for something noble (no matter how flawed) such as saving people from genocide, fascism, Nazis, etc than having cheap oil. And right now, I feel sorry for the soldiers fighting and dying in Iraq, as I feel they have been let down by their country's leadership into fighting to serve the hierarchy's own interests.

Having said all that, I still toy with the idea of leaving all that I have done here behind, and starting fresh in the US military (or perhaps the UK or Australian miltary) doing something different from what we have the opportunity to do here. Apache pilot has always struck my fancy, or crewing an M1A2. No matter how I feel that the US gov't is sticking it to their soldiers right now, I can't help but feel I have been spreading my own ass-cheeks for the last 17 years for our gov't to stick it to us by disregarding our needs (equipment, training, overall funding) and sticking us wherever they feel would make them look good (the whole peacekeeping thing is getting old, and when I hear young officers referring to our military as peacekeepers, I know the damage has been done.......).

Anyway, I understand the allure of going off and trying something different, and good on anyone has done it, and I also understand all those that have stayed on with our military ("dance with who bring ya"). Speaking of mercenary, and peacekeepers, I remember watching a news clip a whole bunch of years ago, and an older Cpl was talking about how he was going to spend the money he made on tour on a new house, and was talking about all that, and not the mission (he was headed off to his second tour of Bosnia). This would have been after I went to Cyprus, but before I went to Bosnia. I was thinking: "How mercenary. He should be talking about how honoured he should be to serve Canada, save people, etc, etc". Then I went on my first tour, and then I was talking about how I would spend the money from my second tour in the exact same way as buddy. Idealism is usually rapidly replaced by realism. Nobody in Canada (or in Bosnia) wouldn't have given a shit if I went up in a pink mist from an AP mine, so may as well make the most of what you get for your efforts (in this case, money).

I'm also reminded of a saying I heard: "If you're NOT a socialist in your 20's, you have no heart. If you ARE a socialist in your 40's, you have no brain".

Al

 

[East Side Soprano]

Great post PJ D-Dog!
May I ask, how did you get a Green Card or Permanent Resident Status to join the Marines? Di

 

[Infanteer]

Bravo Zulu PJ.

Although I can see that Kat is being honest with his question rather then inflammatory, I'll disagree with him.

Being a professional soldier is more of an individual matter then a communal one.  Some people find more professional satisfaction in the careers by moving on the greener pastures.  Is an executive or an academic a "mercenary" if they head off to the US or Britain and put their abilities and their income tax into a different puddle?

A good buddy of mine and forum member here quit the CF after tour and went down to the US.  He's doing some highspeed stuff now (SOF) and is having a blast with the professional challenges he is facing.  Good on him - when the CF loses good soldiers to other militaries, it is a "free market" way of telling us we better (as a country) put more into attracting the best to the profession.

Anyways, we're all on the same team anyways - I'm sure buddy in the US Army is doing more to protect Canada then the CF is capable of at the moment....