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How often are WES/MILES exercises conducted in infantry training? What about once you've been posted? Do infantry units train frequently with the WES gear or is it rare?
Question about WES/MILES
- Thread starter Glorified Ape
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No one can offer any info?
TangoTwoBravo
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I'll try and shed some light here, bearing in mind that I am a tanker (although I have an LSVW now).
MILES training has been somewhat "ad-hoc" in the Canadian Army over the past twenty years. Some units might do it quite frequently (by borrowing from US sources) while others might never see it. I was at Meaford for three years (99-02) and we did not have MILES gear for the QL3 Infantry courses at the time (might have changed). All of the field training I have participated in (as a tanker but with mech infantry in accompaniment) has been either live or "dry" without MILES play. B Sqn RCD and 2 RCR participated in the MAIS trial several years ago (before I got back to the Sqn) in Gagetown and that was an "instrumented" exercise. The participants spoke highly of the exercise.
WES (Weapons Effects Simulator) is coming on line for the Canadian Army. My understanding is that WES will be concentrated at the Canadian Maneouvre Training Centre (CMTC) at Wainwright Alberta, although some "sets" may be available in the other areas for sub-unit training. I do not know if it will be incorporated into individual training. The bottom line is that WES training opportunities should become more standardized. If you are in a unit that is at CMTC for a validation exercise you should expect to see lots of WES training.
As an aside, many armoured units have used the US Army's SIMNET or CCTT at US facilities. "Instrumented" training certainly brings out lessons that dry and live training do not. An army should do all three while realizing that all three have limitations.
Cheers,
2B
MILES training has been somewhat "ad-hoc" in the Canadian Army over the past twenty years. Some units might do it quite frequently (by borrowing from US sources) while others might never see it. I was at Meaford for three years (99-02) and we did not have MILES gear for the QL3 Infantry courses at the time (might have changed). All of the field training I have participated in (as a tanker but with mech infantry in accompaniment) has been either live or "dry" without MILES play. B Sqn RCD and 2 RCR participated in the MAIS trial several years ago (before I got back to the Sqn) in Gagetown and that was an "instrumented" exercise. The participants spoke highly of the exercise.
WES (Weapons Effects Simulator) is coming on line for the Canadian Army. My understanding is that WES will be concentrated at the Canadian Maneouvre Training Centre (CMTC) at Wainwright Alberta, although some "sets" may be available in the other areas for sub-unit training. I do not know if it will be incorporated into individual training. The bottom line is that WES training opportunities should become more standardized. If you are in a unit that is at CMTC for a validation exercise you should expect to see lots of WES training.
As an aside, many armoured units have used the US Army's SIMNET or CCTT at US facilities. "Instrumented" training certainly brings out lessons that dry and live training do not. An army should do all three while realizing that all three have limitations.
Cheers,
2B
Some questions have been asked about Miles/WES gear. I am an Infantry F.O.C. at CMTC, and we're in the process now of integrating the latest generation of WES into our training program. It's really good stuff, it will dramatically increase the effectiveness of force-on-force training, and this kit will be able to tell us who's doing what to whom, from where, when they did it, why they did it, and who did the wrong thing at the wrong time for the wrong reason. Its all tied in with G.P.S., and it will make training very interesting, to say the least.
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One of the best I have ever saw was the MPRC in Yakima.
Full battle sims.,all attacks including Tanks are videod for the Hot Wash after and said Units see were their failings are.
P.S. Every one wears MILES and all computer controld and evevy thing is monitored by camaras and sensores.
Full battle sims.,all attacks including Tanks are videod for the Hot Wash after and said Units see were their failings are.
P.S. Every one wears MILES and all computer controld and evevy thing is monitored by camaras and sensores.
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Thanks for the info fellas.... hopefully the equipment will be common by the time I get there.
S
sixzeroalpha
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As to the MILES gear you could cheat it with out firing,by rapidly tapping the laser unit on the end of your weapon.
I belive that problem was corrected with the miles 2000 gear
I belive that problem was corrected with the miles 2000 gear
Lance Wiebe
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It is my understanding that there are some flaws in the WES system.
My understanding of the WES system is that it does not allow crew served weapons to be operated correctly. By that, I mean, that for example, if a C-6 was boresighted with the WES laser, then the sights can no longer be changed for deflection and range. The same is true for tank, LAV III, and so on. The same range and ammunition settings that were in the system while it was being boresighted has to be kept in the system while it is being employed. So, no lasing, applying the correct range, applying a lead for moving targets and so on.
To me, that means the system may be excellent for tactical training, but it sucks big time for crew training.
Some systems out there, such as the Saab BT-46 force the crews to do their drills, but it is a much more expensive system, where the vehicles actually share information hidden from the crews, such as position, speed, direction, weather conditions and so on.
So, it will be good in some ways, bad in others....
My understanding of the WES system is that it does not allow crew served weapons to be operated correctly. By that, I mean, that for example, if a C-6 was boresighted with the WES laser, then the sights can no longer be changed for deflection and range. The same is true for tank, LAV III, and so on. The same range and ammunition settings that were in the system while it was being boresighted has to be kept in the system while it is being employed. So, no lasing, applying the correct range, applying a lead for moving targets and so on.
To me, that means the system may be excellent for tactical training, but it sucks big time for crew training.
Some systems out there, such as the Saab BT-46 force the crews to do their drills, but it is a much more expensive system, where the vehicles actually share information hidden from the crews, such as position, speed, direction, weather conditions and so on.
So, it will be good in some ways, bad in others....
H
Heathan
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I was tasked as enemy force last year at CMTC in Wainwright to trial the WES gear. Our Pl went up
against B Coy 3VP. What a blast. The kit works great on the whole. There are some minor issues but overall the stuff works great in poor weather and under abuse. Our C-6's, C-9's, and C-7's worked fine.
I had no trouble engaging targets from over 200m with the C-7 with minimul rounds used. The C-6's and C-9's proved very effective at similar ranges. As far as how often we as an infantry unit train with the gear,
not that often yet. As has been stated, Wainwright will be the centre for the west and Gagetown will come online for the east, then every big ex will go through either centre and all pre tour conformation ex's
against B Coy 3VP. What a blast. The kit works great on the whole. There are some minor issues but overall the stuff works great in poor weather and under abuse. Our C-6's, C-9's, and C-7's worked fine.
I had no trouble engaging targets from over 200m with the C-7 with minimul rounds used. The C-6's and C-9's proved very effective at similar ranges. As far as how often we as an infantry unit train with the gear,
not that often yet. As has been stated, Wainwright will be the centre for the west and Gagetown will come online for the east, then every big ex will go through either centre and all pre tour conformation ex's
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To add to what was said about Crew served weapons.. one issue that is being looked at right now is changing the ranges set on those weapons. Right now, the C6, for example was set to a max eff range of 1800 m. Now picture the "field" the laser creates, that is about half the soldier's body. For the field to be that size at 1800 m, (the field expands as the range increases), it was too small at 600 m, and soldiers were missing targets at that range. Hopefully this will be rectified for the next level of trg (Cbt tm in July-Aug). By the time CMTC opens its doors to the first ROTO in 06, many of its bugs will be fixed.. There will always be a few issues (Veh main armaments cannot kill dismounted inf, for example), but the WES system will help improve training. With 4 ROTOS per year, and 12 Inf Bns in the CF, units can expect to come to CMTC once every 3 years.. IF you're a member of a supporting arm, you can expect to come more often than that.
Yes I am at CMTC.. its a great posting.. Come on, come all! There are 95 positions being filled this summer.. Will you be one??
Yes I am at CMTC.. its a great posting.. Come on, come all! There are 95 positions being filled this summer.. Will you be one??
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i was with b coy 3vp when we did the trials for WES back in november, its kinda neat, its all built right into a seperate tc vest an helmet cam cover, but believe it has its fair share of kinks that need to be worked, one of the main ones being like mentioned before, c-6 and c-9, the last statements about it seemed to be about problems with range, but the main problem i saw with the machine guns was that its rate of fire with the laser, basically it fired like a huge rifle, you could let off a 20 round burst and the laser would only fire once, the c-7s were more effective at engaging the enemy, plus the laser couldnt go through shrubs or tall grass, snow, etc, there was also problems with zeroing for most of the 2 weeks,, whereas the enemy force was already down there prior to the ex, and had there there weapons finely tuned and tweaked, zeroed with the lasers, but overall if was still fun as far as company attacks uphill go, theres also a video on the army website about it now from the ex, and not to mention the injuries were pretty creative too
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Actually, for a 20 round burst, the laser fired 5 times..
"In order to remain eye safe, the SAT can not transmit a laser sequence for every shot of a machine gun burst.
A C6 fires a round approx every 50ms
The laser can only fire approx every 200ms
The SAT will count the number of rounds fired, and then fire multiple shot codes in one laser shot."
Which means that even though 1 laser is fired for each 4 rounds fired, it counts for 4 rounds.
As for the issue with shooting through shrubbery, well, the laser needs line of sight. That is one of the "downfalls" of the system. (unlike bullets that go through things) If we made the laser stronger, or wider at the muzzle, the field would be too large (and not eye safe) at the weapons effective range. Any round near the target would register as a hit.
During SAT 1 that B Coy 3VP participated in (again, this was the first trial with the system) there were issues.. We, along with CUBIC, are trying to fix as many as realistically (and budgetarily??!) possible in order to make training worthwhile as realistic as possible.
Oh, and Clinton_84.. the OPFOR's weapons were zero'd the same manner as everyone else's. They had problems too. You're just saying that because they destroyed your company time after time. I'm glad you had fun. Hopefully, you and your chain of command learned a few things about taken up good firing positions and proper sighting of weapons. Thats what it's all about.
Next up, 1 VP sending a mech coy for SAT 2 this July/Aug. This will be the first time the vehicle instrumentation is used, and of course we'll have improvements on the small arms kit.
:threat:
"In order to remain eye safe, the SAT can not transmit a laser sequence for every shot of a machine gun burst.
A C6 fires a round approx every 50ms
The laser can only fire approx every 200ms
The SAT will count the number of rounds fired, and then fire multiple shot codes in one laser shot."
Which means that even though 1 laser is fired for each 4 rounds fired, it counts for 4 rounds.
As for the issue with shooting through shrubbery, well, the laser needs line of sight. That is one of the "downfalls" of the system. (unlike bullets that go through things) If we made the laser stronger, or wider at the muzzle, the field would be too large (and not eye safe) at the weapons effective range. Any round near the target would register as a hit.
During SAT 1 that B Coy 3VP participated in (again, this was the first trial with the system) there were issues.. We, along with CUBIC, are trying to fix as many as realistically (and budgetarily??!) possible in order to make training worthwhile as realistic as possible.
Oh, and Clinton_84.. the OPFOR's weapons were zero'd the same manner as everyone else's. They had problems too. You're just saying that because they destroyed your company time after time. I'm glad you had fun. Hopefully, you and your chain of command learned a few things about taken up good firing positions and proper sighting of weapons. Thats what it's all about.
Next up, 1 VP sending a mech coy for SAT 2 this July/Aug. This will be the first time the vehicle instrumentation is used, and of course we'll have improvements on the small arms kit.
:threat:
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Capt Chang
Glad you like it down there, but there isn't enough money in the CF to drag me outta 1RCR recce and come fill a posting there, better then last time we were in Wainaright eh?, Only good part about that ex was the first class seats we snagged for the flight back, course the at the time lowly private like myself only got the seat cause you and Peveese(sp?) told the flight guy to leave me alone LOL, keep in touch sir and try not to wreck and rental vans ok?
Glad you like it down there, but there isn't enough money in the CF to drag me outta 1RCR recce and come fill a posting there, better then last time we were in Wainaright eh?, Only good part about that ex was the first class seats we snagged for the flight back, course the at the time lowly private like myself only got the seat cause you and Peveese(sp?) told the flight guy to leave me alone LOL, keep in touch sir and try not to wreck and rental vans ok?
H
Heathan
Guest
I was there for SAT 1 as OPFOR and I zeroed my C-7 the morning of my first defensive not weeks before. We had a handful of people the came up to CMTC prior to assist in set up, they did get out to test the new gear but we didnt get weeks of prep. As for SAT 2 and SAT 3, I cant wait, the task for OPFOR is 2 VP's again, and from what I gather A-COY has it.clinton_84 said:
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