PWT 3 Help
- Thread starter rmc_wannabe
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The main reason is improper sight picture and not the mythical jamming. A lot of people can fire this way but for others and new shooters they do not have a proper sight picture especially with the C79 scope. Resting the mag on the ground drops the sight up to 2-3 inches dependent of the build of the person. Some of the shoots call for prone unsupported. Resting the mag/rifle on the ground is cheating and not at true test of your shootings skills. Prone supported on the range is a sandbag with you forearm resting on the bag and sumwhat your mag but the arm should be providing the support. Same as some of the kneeling at the one/two hundred call for supported, but most(range OIC's) do not use the poles that are provided on the range.
I have been away from the range for a couple of years and the Shoot to Live was changing but proper positioning and marksmanship principles have not changed.
And range shooting and actual combat are two different things but if the basics are not enforce they may be problems later when the pressure is on.
This has been the debate for years and it will not go away. If you have proper marksmanship principles, proper rifle stock length, practice (thru dry, SAT and firing the shoot to live program) and especially physical fitness you can fire from any position with out problems, with or without support, and pass the PWT.
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Well, you thought wrong. Any other bits of uninformed insight you care to pass on?
Since you asked, not only did I pass the damn test but I did it at an ATS so I wasn't saving my rounds for end. I was also the RSO for a PWT range on the same ATS earlier this spring. Funny, the people who could not get past the PWT 1 portion were the ones who obstinately rested the mag on the ground. One even used his sandbag as a "barrel pillow" instead of properly in the prone supported. From talking to these folks the it seemed their rifles were the problem, not their refusal to use marksmanship principles
As Grunt_031 just put it, resting the mag on the ground does not necessarily contribute to stoppages but negatively affects marksmanship principles. It can also creates a fulcrum on which the rifle pivots during breathing and follow through. I know this first hand because this was pointed out to me early enough in my career by a sniper and Bisely competitor, and my shooting improved immensely. That's why I pass this on to younger shooters like the individual who started this thread.
If you have physical limitations, then do what you have to do but you should talk to your QM to see if a shorter butt can be obtained. If you're taller, extended rifle butts are available as well. A good QM and/or weapons tech will sort you out.
If you're only coming on the range once a year to pass a PWT and then not shoot again until next year's PWT then hopefully it's because of occupational pressures and not because you think that passing the PWT is the sole focus of a shooting program. PWT's are gateway training and that is often lost on some people.
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rmc_wannabe said:
I love doing the PWT 3 almost as much as live fire field ranges (have to, as it is gate way training
). First and foremost, what works for me, may not work for everyone. Find what works, then use it everytime (make a habit of using HABIT).You want to hold the weapon the same way in relation to your sight picture (same picture all positions). For standing and kneeling, there is a great tendency for shooters with lesser experience to lower the head into the optic, as opposed to trying to keep the same positioning. Instead of lowering the head, trying raising the butt of the weapon further up in the shoulder to keep your head more upright. For myself, I have lots of neck, and shoulders that are not as large as I would like, so it looks kinda crazy, as it appears that only the toe of my butt is biting my shoulder, but I do have four solid points of contact on the weapon (forward hand, trigger hand, cheek and shoulder), so it is proving to be very stable. Practice this with dry firing, keeping the same sight picture, with lots of practice this will become instinctive (key to the PWT 3 and more advanced ranges).
On the 12 at the 100, do you find yourself a little short winded? I could sprint the full distance, but my shooting would be horrible by the time I finished. It is a race against a slow clock, not against the fastest runner on the relay. I start fairly brisk with each target up, down the hill, and slow down gradually until I hit the bottom of the next mound, at which point I a walking up, take my time getting into position, and test and adjust before letting fly with my first round... With practice, again, the test and adjust becomes much faster as your muscle memory and body will want to start naturally lining up on target.
Mag on the ground, off the ground is the great debate. It works for some (not me). I recommend getting used to mag not on the ground. When I was shooting comp back in 94-95, I spent hours upon hours just dry firing from the prone. Looks silly, and people think you are a little off drawing your rifle to dry fire for hours... But at the end of the day, it works. When you get the hang of it from dry firing, you will find that, as I state above, your body will fall into instinctive positioning with very minor adjustments... This is the key, but only achieved from lots of practice.
Just some thoughts from another 031... Last point from me, learn to enjoy shooting if you do not already. Do it lots, get on the shooting team if your unit has one.
BDTyre
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Just another piece of advice. If the weather is less than ideal (i.e. raining and not warm), try to keep a small piece of rag or cloth handy. I did my PWT 3 times; the first two I was only two or three points away from a pass and I'm certain that those points were lost at the 300m point simply because my scope was so fogged/dirty that I couldn't even see the target properly and had no idea what I was shooting at.
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Osotogari said:
I normally don't like to argue shooting stances etc... but I have to disagree with you on the don't put the magazine on the ground. My question is why not?
Just to put my experience in perspective, I've shot at CFSAC for a few years, I've fired more than 50,000 rounds from a C7 with the mag on the ground, and managed to nearly win Top TYRO my first year and I've made the Top 50 shooters in the CF three times, and been a member of the Top team twice. I've represented Canada at an International shoot in the US. So I feel I can reasonably comment on this subject. In all my time shooting I've never had a stoppage due to having the mag on the ground, and I've never had an issue related to doing so. That being said, I'm not saying all should put the mag on the ground, but it works for many. Shooting IMO is about doing the same thing consistently and doing what works for YOU, while trying to apply marksmanship principles.
BTW three of the Queens medalist (multiple wins each) I've shot with shoot with the mag on the ground.
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I can't believe the mag on the ground/off the ground argument is still on. It was running nicely in '92 when I first started getting serious about shooting and I guess it will never end.
I will state categorically that resting the mag on the ground will provide a steadier rest and improve your shooting. It will have no impact on weapon reliability.
I agree that it will create a fulcrum, so should your support hand in all positions. You can prove this to yourself by observing your site picture. It should drop as you inhale and rise on the exhale. Using your forearm to support the rifle just replaces metal with flesh doing the same thing and, not as well.
You are out of your lane in regards to Bisley. If you were to walk the firing line at Bisley, you would see the vast majority of M16 FOW shooters resting the mag on the ground.
The site picture should be unaffected by resting the mag on the ground. One of the few nice things you can say about the C79 optic is the lack of parallax error. You can line up well off centre and the bullets still go were the pointer is.
All this for the easiest of positions. The much greater challenge is the kneeling. It is here that good conditioning, flexibility and application of the HABIT principles will reap the greatest rewards.
I agree whole heartedly with the advise vis-a-vis the slow speed on the rundown, using a coach and dry firing as much as possible. Dry firing is undoubtedly the most underused and cost effective marksmanship tool available.
Finally, in general I don't agree with the counting of rounds so that you can change mags with the last round chambered. In a stress situation, it is impossible to keep track of 30 rounds, though that isn't the situation in the PWT, it is poor practice to train against reality. If the situation permits a slow tactical reload when you feel you've gotten more than half way through a mag, take it. If not, far better to exercise the muscle memory of a rapid reload, not have to worry about failing to fully seat the mag, and disengaging the bolt catch. For a far better and more learned discussion on reloading, search for reloading posts by Infidel-6.
I will state categorically that resting the mag on the ground will provide a steadier rest and improve your shooting. It will have no impact on weapon reliability.
Osotogari said:
I agree that it will create a fulcrum, so should your support hand in all positions. You can prove this to yourself by observing your site picture. It should drop as you inhale and rise on the exhale. Using your forearm to support the rifle just replaces metal with flesh doing the same thing and, not as well.
You are out of your lane in regards to Bisley. If you were to walk the firing line at Bisley, you would see the vast majority of M16 FOW shooters resting the mag on the ground.
The site picture should be unaffected by resting the mag on the ground. One of the few nice things you can say about the C79 optic is the lack of parallax error. You can line up well off centre and the bullets still go were the pointer is.
All this for the easiest of positions. The much greater challenge is the kneeling. It is here that good conditioning, flexibility and application of the HABIT principles will reap the greatest rewards.
I agree whole heartedly with the advise vis-a-vis the slow speed on the rundown, using a coach and dry firing as much as possible. Dry firing is undoubtedly the most underused and cost effective marksmanship tool available.
Finally, in general I don't agree with the counting of rounds so that you can change mags with the last round chambered. In a stress situation, it is impossible to keep track of 30 rounds, though that isn't the situation in the PWT, it is poor practice to train against reality. If the situation permits a slow tactical reload when you feel you've gotten more than half way through a mag, take it. If not, far better to exercise the muscle memory of a rapid reload, not have to worry about failing to fully seat the mag, and disengaging the bolt catch. For a far better and more learned discussion on reloading, search for reloading posts by Infidel-6.
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