Proper Tourniquet Application

[the 48th regulator]

If you've got a problem with my post, please let me know and I will gladly remove it, or by all means remove it yourself, but if you do I fully expect that you don't save a copy for yourself.  If you're going to focuss on the negative then there is no reason it should stay up.  After all you are in charge not me.  I'm just trying to help some people out.  If it's not up to your standard, I'll take my info and go home and provide the info through a different medium where people can appreciate it.  And if you're going to warn or ban me again for standing up for myself, then let me know ahead of time so I can erase my info myself.

hmm,

interesting statement, perhaps freudian slip ....

dileas

tess

 

[JANES]

I'm not sure what your arguing here.  We're discussing tourniquets, not
Afghanistan, not just tourniquets on a current operation or TCCC.

I only mentioned FEBA because you seem to be blinded by TCCC and
care under fire.  If your going to claim ,
then your discussing full spectrum. As I mentioned, all roles. If your
going to train, train correctly.

I guess I am the one mistaken then (as you always seem to have to manipulate your understanding of my posts to try and prove that I am wrong, and of course you are always right because you are DS).  I was discussing tk WRT TCCC as they dont really have any application anywhere else.  St Johns's first aid, BTLS, PHTLS, ATLS is the standard everywhere else (non-tactical, non-combat), and they discourage them very strongly.  When I started the thread it was under the presumption that everyone would understand that it was for use during TCCC.  I guess I should have clarfied that for those that can't see the big picture and realize where a tk is and isn't appropriate.  It's seems like you're going out of your way try and find a fault in my postings.

I'm not sure I understand the second part of your statement.  I used Afghanistan as an example.  We don't fight 180 degree FEBA style warfare anymore.  We are involved in 4th generation warefare.  There is no FEBA. 

I'm discussing tourniquet use by soldiers and military medics, using them in the context of their job, i.e. tactical and combat environments.  During TCCC.  Not in garrison or the clinic or "full spectrum" as you claim I have stated.  They just don't get used there.  Why does the DS always seem to turn forums that I post in, into defamation attempts.  Conversations always run so smoothly until they get involved. 

If I'm going to train, train correctly?  I can assure you that I train correctly.  More correctly than you will ever be privy to know!

hmm,

interesting statement, perhaps freudian slip ....

dileas

tess

What does that mean?  How does this apply to tourniquets???

 

[the 48th regulator]

My Job is to Moderate the site, on behalf of Mike B.

You make a statement, challenging a Mod to ban you again, and that piques my interest.

What does that mean?  How does this apply to tourniquets???

Maybe a simile to who you are and how I am seeing things....

dileas

tess

 

[JANES]

My Job is to Moderate the site, on behalf of Mike B.

You make a statement, challenging a Mod to ban you again, piques my interest.

Maybe a simile to who you are....

dileas

tess

FYI I was never banned.  I I never challenged anyone to ban me.  But it wouldnt surprise me if they did as some people get threatened by information very easily here.  Now why is this conversation taking place in a public forum on tourniquets???

 

[the 48th regulator]

So You were never banned, yet state you were.

Yes I will take this up in a "Public thread" on tourniquets.

Very serious subject, and I find an oddity to your creditability pertinent to your statements....

see the reason for me posting in this Public forum.....

Oh and by the way, just because I am "DS", don't try to use that as a way to skirt the issue....pretend a I am a just like one of the other people here who has found it odd in what you have said...

dileas

tess

 

[old medic]

FYI I was never banned.  I I never challenged anyone to ban me.  But it wouldnt surprise me if they did as some people get threatened by information very easily here.  Now why is this conversation taking place in a public forum on tourniquets???

This is where it came up.

 

[JANES]

You know what says a lot about credibility, is making issues when none exist to trying and look important. 

Banned, warned, whatever, is semanitcs. 

I'm not skirting any issue.  I will deal with every issue head on.  And I can't pretend you're NOT DS because as soon as you loose face or feel threatened, all you have to do is give me a warning.  So Im going into this discussion at a disadvantage.  And funny enough, the only people that found what I have said odd is two DS staff.  Everyone else was here was engaged strictly in informative discussion about tourniquets and found my post benificial.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I don't feel threatened at all...

You sound like you are, wouldn't you agree?

Why is that?  Hey your information may be Phenomenally correct, or it can be sugar coated to sound like it is.

Why do you choose to point out the fact that the only people questioning you are DS.

You see, to me that is an example of some hidden reason for your posts....You are quick to take digs at the CF, and then at the staff here.  Then you try to play the victim as being the one that is picked on in a viable thread about medical aid.


But you see, that is where the truth must be found.  As if you are spouting insulting statements, expect it in return. And if you are doing that in a thread that can cause harm to troops, I will not put up with it.

So Janes, what is your agenda?  To help the average soldier, or to goad us DS into proving a point....

My Spidey senses are tingling.....

dileas

tess

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

There are many ways of doing things.  Doing things one way dose not exclude the fact that an other way isn't correct as well? 
Lots of gray areas.  When I asked, "Is the standard to loosen q10min?"  I just wanted to see what the current thinking was.  JANES gave his , fine.  I just think his antagonistic tone is counter productive.

David

 

[the 48th regulator]

Cheers Dave,

Will be interestin g to hear what our fellow poster has to say...

I am off to bed, Oh five hundred, and I am still up.

dileas

tess

 

[JANES]

You see, to me that is an example of some hidden reason for your posts....You are quick to take digs at the CF, and then at the staff here.  Then you try to play the victim as being the one that is picked on in a viable thread about medical aid.

But you see, that is where the truth must be found.  As if you are spouting insulting statements, expect it in return. And if you are doing that in a thread that can cause harm to troops, I will not put up with it.

So Janes, what is your agenda?  To help the average soldier, or to goad us DS into proving a point....

My Spidey senses are tingling.....

dileas

tess

You're digging for something you will never find.  All my intension was, was to, in your words "help the average soldier".   "goad us DS into proving a point" was an issue that was fabricated by DS.  Spiderman you are definitely not!

I took no digs at the CF, I simply stated I was surprised how some medics don't know proper tk guidelines.  Maybe you should read my second post in this thread before you get your blood pressure up.

This all started because someone doesnt know that the word "ignorance" simply means lack of education, and it's just been proven again

There are many ways of doing things.  Doing things one way dose not exclude the fact that an other way isn't correct as well? 
Lots of gray areas.  When I asked, "Is the standard to loosen q10min?"   I just wanted to see what the current thinking was.  JANES gave his , fine.  I just think his antagonistic tone is counter productive.

There are medics out there with a lack of education on tourniquets.

The antagonistic tone I may point out started with here:

Janes,
Armymedic beat me to the first four points, so I won't repeat the first three.
I want to re-enforce his fourth:
No. Do it. If you do not have a pen or marker, use the casualty's blood and mark a T or at least a "T" like cross on the forehead.


Marking it has to be done.  This is both an MSI for CF Medics, and a NATO STANAG (2350-Ed2) for everybody who
would apply a tourniquet.

There are much less "antagonistic" and finger pointing ways of stating this information.   

You want to talk about Freud?  A statement worded like this shows me an insecurity because he has to address it specifically to me instead of providing a general informative addition, then let everyone know that he's a very smart guy and very informed by saying he would have stated all that information if someone hadn't beaten him to it.  Then he feels he has to has to point out very clearly, because it makes him feel good about himself, (point out anothers fault to relatively make your own standing look better) why a little tiny statement in a very large post was wrong (actually misinterpreted out of context).  Now sit there and call this last statement BS and a figment of my imagination, but I can sit here and say the same about all your bold theories about me.  Theres no difference.  Mine's backed up by psychology, your's are based on assumptions.

And then, this is my favorite part, lock the topic.  (maybe you feel like you're fighting a loosing battle?  Are you afraid of what the other posters might say? 

 

[JANES]

You see, to me that is an example of some hidden reason for your posts....You are quick to take digs at the CF, and then at the staff here.  Then you try to play the victim as being the one that is picked on in a viable thread about medical aid.

But you see, that is where the truth must be found.  As if you are spouting insulting statements, expect it in return. And if you are doing that in a thread that can cause harm to troops, I will not put up with it.

So Janes, what is your agenda?  To help the average soldier, or to goad us DS into proving a point....

My Spidey senses are tingling.....

dileas

tess

You're digging for something you will never find.  All my intension was, was to, in your words "help the average soldier".  "goad us DS into proving a point" was an issue that was fabricated by DS.  Spiderman you are definitely not!

I took no digs at the CF, I simply stated I was surprised how some medics don't know proper tk guidelines.  Maybe you should read my second post in this thread before you get your blood pressure up.

This all started because someone doesnt know that the word "ignorance" simply means lack of education, and it's just been proven again

There are many ways of doing things.  Doing things one way dose not exclude the fact that an other way isn't correct as well? 
Lots of gray areas.  When I asked, "Is the standard to loosen q10min?"  I just wanted to see what the current thinking was.  JANES gave his , fine.  I just think his antagonistic tone is counter productive.

There are medics out there with a lack of education on tourniquets.

The antagonistic tone I may point out started with here:

Janes,
Armymedic beat me to the first four points, so I won't repeat the first three.
I want to re-enforce his fourth:
No. Do it. If you do not have a pen or marker, use the casualty's blood and mark a T or at least a "T" like cross on the forehead.


Marking it has to be done.  This is both an MSI for CF Medics, and a NATO STANAG (2350-Ed2) for everybody who
would apply a tourniquet.

There are much less "antagonistic" and finger pointing ways of stating this information. 

You want to talk about Freud?  A statement worded like this shows me an insecurity because he has to address it specifically to me instead of providing a general informative addition, then let everyone know that he's a very smart guy and very informed by saying he would have stated all that information if someone hadn't beaten him to it.  Then he feels he has to has to point out very clearly, because it makes him feel good about himself, (point out anothers fault to relatively make your own standing look better) why a little tiny statement in a very large post was wrong (actually misinterpreted out of context).  Now sit there and call this last statement BS and a figment of my imagination, but I can sit here and say the same about all your bold theories about me.  Theres no difference.  Mine's backed up by psychology, your's are based on assumptions.

And then, this is my favorite part, lock the topic.  (maybe you feel like you're fighting a loosing battle?  Are you afraid of what the other posters might say? 

 

[old medic]

I guess I am the one mistaken then (as you always seem to have to manipulate your understanding of my posts to try and prove that I am wrong, and of course you are always right because you are DS).

Upon review of your posts, I have only replied once to anything you have posted. That was in June 2005.

The antagonistic tone I may point out started with here:
.....
There are much less "antagonistic" and finger pointing ways of stating this information. 

Ah.... Lets review them:

So what is this tactical combat casualty care?  Whats wrong with the what we have?

It's inspiring to see such interest in the topic, especially from the Combat Arms.  It's also very scary to see all these self proclaimed experts on the topic.  It's important to realize, just because you're a medic or nurse or whatever in the Army, doesn't mean you're a TCCC SME.

This is a bad medium to learn in gents, I dont recommend it.  You cant verify any info as being true. 
I'm gone boys, nice chatting, but no one would give me the right answer to my questions, Whats 500ml of NS going to do for anyone?

Good luck!

......  You can read all the slideshows and books you want, but to truely understand it you need the experience.  So I'll ask again, who will develope the standards and who will teach it? 

Everybody sure does a good job of letting everybody else know how smart they think they are.....

Good thing you Canadianized it, I don't speak American.  .....

Seems this thread has gone dead,
kinda like the topic in the CF - no implimentation, no standardization, everyone teaching their own version.  Brass doesnt know what or how to address it, so they ignore it.  Seems like TCCC is a swear word to cbt arms cmdrs.  First Aid all the way!!!!  DCDS directive!!!  No staffing, no money no time, no subject matter experts.  To proud to look south for advice?  Gonna bite the CF in the bum.  Hows that First Aid workin out for ya?

You are so stuck in the hospital.  .....  Thats what they're using, so go tell Butler your concerns, his address is Surgeon General, USSOFCOM.  I don't make this stuff up.

Sounds like a personal problems.  .....

You know, I dont take kindly to threats.  I simply say things the way I see them.  I also provide a lot of good information that some people must feel threatened by.  I assure you, I don't make anything up and only post facts.  As for my blank profile, I believe it keeps people honest.  It prevents bullying and brown nosing.  Regardless if I'm a 12 year old kid or a trauma surgeon, you can take my posts or leave them.  ....  By turning me off of this forum, you will loose a valuable information asset.  So for now, I will sit back and watch from a distance.  Good bye!

 

[JANES]

Seems I have to reply in here as DS is posting in a locked thread and I dont have that luxery.

I'd have to say thats all those statments are taken out of context.  Some of it was a devils advocate approach.  Why did you lock it?  And then why would you post in it after it is locked?  One would almost think you are afraid of replys to your posts!  Or afraid of public opinion.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't know?  It seems to me that you have been asked questions and have chosen to ignore them.  You have made some very antagonistic statements and claims and when someone questions you, you've become extremely defensive or retreated from the forums for days.  It seems like you have a very thin skin in the debating circles and a very high esteem for your own abilities and knowledge, pumping up you ego at every chance you can take.  This topic is an example of 'some poor little kid going off to his corner to sulk.'  Seems like you are a borderline Troll to me.  If your claims on these forums are anyway flawed, they could have damaging effects on soldiers lives and wellbeing.  If you can't take the heat from Medics and Medical Staff, and as you have no profile, I guess you don't have any leg to stand on.

 

[the 48th regulator]

You're digging for something you will never find.  All my intension was, was to, in your words "help the average soldier".   "goad us DS into proving a point" was an issue that was fabricated by DS.  Spiderman you are definitely not!

We shall see.  I have been right before.

dileas

tess

 

[the 48th regulator]

And once again I will say,

You're digging for something you will never find.  All my intension was, was to, in your words "help the average soldier".   "goad us DS into proving a point" was an issue that was fabricated by DS.  Spiderman you are definitely not!

We shall see.  I have been right before.

dileas

tess

 

[JANES]

And probably never wrong!

 

[Centurian1985]

Getting back to the point, I am intrigued by what the current policy is for tourniquets:

Formerly, the only people who were legally allowed to apply a tourniquet (wait wait, dont get mad yet) was, as of 2002, CF doctors, CF medics,and St John First Aid qualified instructors.  The last group was because St. John First Aid did not want to take responsibility for anyone in the armed forces using their medical techniques who incorrectly applied a tourniquet.  (They did not recognize the need for field-expedient medical aid techniques)

I bring this up because on one refresher mine-training course I took in 2001 some older ranks verily snottily claimed that no one was allowed to apply a tourniquet to another CF member, upon which I informed him of his incorrect information (thus leading to more snottiness, but I rant on...).  My point is, are our guys in the field now allowed to apply tourniquets to injured comrades without some rear area pencil-pusher saying "hey, youre not allowed to do that you know, I could have you charged!".  In other words, has it finally gotten through that this is a required training need and a battlefield requirement regardles of St. Johns?

 

 

[Armymedic]

Oh how times have changed...Charge me for saving the guys life because I used a tourniquet? You go ahead and try.

I am not sure if there is a CF policy per say. I can safely say though that there was no official policy against using a tourniquet, except that it was discouraged by St Johns Ambulance FA tng because of the loss of limb issue. In the case of losing life vs not using TK, common sense says TK every time.

Also Standard FA is a civilian oriented course. TK have always had relevence in military medicine (severe wounds, long transport times, etc). That is why a proper Mil FA course still taught about TK, just told you to use it as a very last resort, as you would/could cause the person to lose the limb.

As for someone properly applying a TK...we have a case already. I do not think he will get in any trouble for saving the medic's life.

There are no absolutes without reason in medicine. If someone tells you must do X, or can not do X, without a reason beyond "thats the way the book says"...then ignore them. Everything we do has a reason. And if you read through this thread reasons for doing and not doing things change all the time.

So, in a nut shell:
If you are in uniform and someone is injured and bleeding to the point where the dressing is soaked through with blood, apply a TK as tight as you can, no closer then 1 handwidth above the wound. Make a T on thier forehead and get / go to medical care as fast as you can.